300 win mag vs. 30-06 ackley improved

[laker]

How much of a difference would there be between a 30-06 ackley with a 26 inch barrel vs. a 300 win mag with a 24 inch barrel with both guns shooting 180 grain accubonds?

 

[YoteSmoker]

According to Nosler's 5th edition manual, both test rifles used had 24" barrels. Some of the fastest loads in both were 2985 for 06 improved with RL-22 and 3118 with RL 22 for the 300 win mag. You should be close with a 26" barrelled 06 ai.

 

[bullet]

I owned a 30-06 Ackley Improved custom on a TRG Sako receiver with a Shilen 24" barrel. Dropped a black bear with that rifle using a 165gr bullet.

Now that said, you talk about work not only to tweak my loads but the brass forming and such. Trying to get accuracy and velocities that were acceptable was a real pain. It did not out preform my Mark V 30-06 buy much at all and when I found the real accurate load it did not out preform the work I just did with my 30-06 not long ago.

I am not a believer that the 30-06 Ackley IMP has any worth while advantage over the 30-06 to warrant the trouble.

If you really want above 30-06 velocities with accuracy I would choose the 300Win Mag. Just my .02 cents worth if it is that.

Also, I began with a 26" barrel (#2 contour to hold weight down) on my 30-06 Ackley Imp, but we took it and cut 2" off of it because barrel harmonics were keeping me from getting stellar accuracy.

just some thoughts

 

[Savage99]

The so called improved chambers are a hobby extension. In terms of a significant velocity gain most of what little there is comes from borderline pressures.

I have the 'improved' chambers on belted, rimless and rimmed cases and while it was interesting nothing was gained and some time was lost.

On the otherhand if you want to try a 'improved' chamber go ahead. Its good clean fun.

To be frank I would not want such a long 26" barrel on just an 06 case unless it were a match rifle.

Look at the 300 WSM. It has better headspace control for long case life than the 300 WM and its available in the trim and light Kimber. That rifle has a good M70 type safety and CRF as well.

 

[wingnut]

There is little if any advantage over the '06 with the AI UNTIL you get to a 180 grain bullet or heavier. Check out Nosler Guides #5 and #6.

I perfer the AI over the 300 WM because I'm a recoil pansy. Any rifle recoil over about 21 foot pounds makes me develope a flinch. Therefore, the 180g AB over RL22 for about 2950 FPS brings me up to my non-flinch limit. YMMV.

 

[nomosendero]

I have owned a Win. Model 70 in 30-06AI for 20 years & a Lam. Stocked Sendeo in 300WM for about 12 years & without going through all of the loads, let me just say this. If the 26" is cool with you, just get a 300WM & be done with it. Recoil is relative to weight, stock design, recoil pad, etc.
The FELT recoil of my 2 rifles are very similar, 300 Sender vs a Featerwt. 30-06AI.

 

[Big Squeeze]

How much of a difference would there be between a 30-06 ackley with a 26 inch barrel vs. a 300 win mag with a 24 inch barrel with both guns shooting 180 grain accubonds?

...........To keep it simple AND as "bullet" suggests, get the 300 Win. Mag. Or as another suggested, the 300 WSM.

If you want performance that exceeds the std. `06, which is what it appears to be, either of those two would be excellent choices and better ballistically by a small margin over the AI.

I`ve never been a big fan of this AI business. If you want a certain level of ballistic performance, stick with the cartridges that don`t need to be improved upon in the first place, ie the 300 Win. or the 300 WSM.

If you prefer the longer action, the 300 Win. is an excellent cartridge. If you prefer the shorter action in a somewhat lighter rifle, the 300 WSM for a fast .30, cannot be beat...........

 

[YoteSmoker]

Well almost. The SAUM can beat the WSM.

 

[Big Squeeze]

Well almost. The SAUM can beat the WSM.[/quote................That depends on the individual rife. Performance wise, it is really a hair splitter between the two, with no difference in the field on game whatsoever!............The 300 WSM (I have a compact), is certainly more popular between the two, as many more rifle offerings or selections are chambered in the 300 WSM..........This whole Ackley biz has its fans, but I dont see any point to these cartridges. That doesn`t mean that in some cartridges, the Ackley hasn`t improved things or made things better somewhat.

But especially in these two?

If one is considering a 280 AI,,,just go get a 7mm Rem. mag!
" " " " " `06 AI,,,just go get a 300 Win. or WSM!

The 7 mag and the 300`s can be loaded down to match the 280 or `06 Ackleys anyway.

 

[YoteSmoker]

You're right Big Squeeze. The 300 SAUM in 26" Sendero will beat the pants off a 300 WSM Ruger Frontier.

 

[Big Squeeze]

You're right Big Squeeze. The 300 SAUM in 26" Sendero will beat the pants off a 300 WSM Ruger Frontier.

......................That`s ok Yote!!.... I`ll gladly sacrifice some velocity to carry a rifle that is only 35.5 inches in OAL, with a 16.5" barrel, that weighs 7.5 lb with scope, that is much faster to the shoulder, is much quicker in target acquisition and aiming, is much handier, is much easier to carry in any terrain, is much easier to hunt with, is much easier to pack,,,etc, etc and etc......A 10-11 lb., 46" or 47" OAL Sendero w/scope, handles like a pig on the end of a shovel...........

Given the fact that the 26" Sendero`s barrel is 9.5" longer, I hope that there is more velocity. Nothin like comparing an apple to a watermelon!!

But! That little 300 WSM Frontier, my friend, has better chronographed ballistics than you may want to, or wish to think.

I`ve posted similiar #`s before, these are the latest! Let me refresh your memory!

150 gr. SST @ 3135 fps. very near max. very accurate.....Hmmmmm!
180 gr. SST @ 2926 fps. very near max. very accurate.....Hmmmmm!
200 gr. Nosler A/B @ 2828 fps. at max. very accurate......Hmmmmm!

At roughly a 15 to 30 fps velocity difference for every inch of barrel length, I`m losing anywhere from 142 to 285 fps vs a 26" 300 WSM!! I`ve chrono`d two 24" 300 WSM rifles and did the math.

I don`t know exactly what the #`s are from a 26" RSUM Sendero, but there is no way I`d hunt with that, 10 to 11 lb., 46 to 47 inch HOG w /scope!!!.........With the #`s my Frontier puts out, I`ll be more than happy to sacrifice some velocity to have a much better hunting rifle in a compact, while going anywhere with the big boys, hunting the same game and shooting from the same ranges too!!

"Beats the pants off?"................Think again!!!

 

[bullet]

Big squeeze, here you go again!!!!

You posted the following:
150 gr. SST @ 3135 fps. very near max. very accurate.....Hmmmmm!
180 gr. SST @ 2926 fps. very near max. very accurate.....Hmmmmm!
200 gr. Nosler A/B @ 2828 fps. at max. very accurate......Hmmmmm!


I want you to try something of a test if you would. Handload for your 300WSM and get it to shoot at least a 1/2-3/4 five shot group. Now once you have done that, then I want you to chronograph this accurate round for an average of five shots. Then when you have done so post a picture of the target (the five shot group 1/2-3/4") and also a picture of your chrony's face showing the average velocity. I think you will be surprised. Now do this and then let's talk about how it performs the performance factors in light of other 30 Cal. cartridges.

For an added test and more fun do this with 150gr, 165gr, 180gr, 200gr, 220gr and 240gr and lets see how it performs across the board. I think it would be quite and education for all of us. By the way I have done the above except the 240gr because it just will not fit and get any velocity. This very test is why it is not my favorite 30 cal nor do I find justification for it's existence outside of new sales.

My 300Wby pushing a 180TSX 3278fps shot .324" - 1.956" groups. My 30-06 can shoot a five shot group of 165gr bullets traveling at an average of 3060fps in to 3/4" and those test have been posted on this forum.

Just take the time to do the test I have suggested and then let me and others know your findings and let's have some fun. Once you have done so I want to try your loads in my browning A-bolt and see what you developed and how it compares with the tests I did with my 300WSM and A-bolt with a 22" barrel and your 20" barrel Ruger.

 

[Big Squeeze]

Big squeeze, here you go again!!!!

You posted the following:
150 gr. SST @ 3135 fps. very near max. very accurate.....Hmmmmm!
180 gr. SST @ 2926 fps. very near max. very accurate.....Hmmmmm!
200 gr. Nosler A/B @ 2828 fps. at max. very accurate......Hmmmmm!


I want you to try something of a test if you would. Handload for your 300WSM and get it to shoot at least a 1/2-3/4 five shot group. Now once you have done that, then I want you to chronograph this accurate round for an average of five shots. Then when you have done so post a picture of the target (the five shot group 1/2-3/4") and also a picture of your chrony's face showing the average velocity. I think you will be surprised. Now do this and then let's talk about how it performs the performance factors in light of other 30 Cal. cartridges.

For an added test and more fun do this with 150gr, 165gr, 180gr, 200gr, 220gr and 240gr and lets see how it performs across the board. I think it would be quite and education for all of us. By the way I have done the above except the 240gr because it just will not fit and get any velocity. This very test is why it is not my favorite 30 cal nor do I find justification for it's existence outside of new sales.

My 300Wby pushing a 180TSX 3278fps shot .324" - 1.956" groups. My 30-06 can shoot a five shot group of 165gr bullets traveling at an average of 3060fps in to 3/4" and those test have been posted on this forum.

Just take the time to do the test I have suggested and then let me and others know your findings and let's have some fun. Once you have done so I want to try your loads in my browning A-bolt and see what you developed and how it compares with the tests I did with my 300WSM and A-bolt with a 22" barrel and your 20" barrel Ruger.

.............................Here I go AGAIN?.....Just posting the facts!!........Seems to me, as I read through past posts, I recall that you certainly out number me talkin about your Wby`s, velocity and so on, than I ever have on Nosler with my Frontier??.........Unless of course, someone has a statement to make that challenges me. The groups that I`m getting with my above loads are from 3/4 to 1.15" (outside hole to outside hole)....That is using my barrel de-resonator too!

Tell ya what!.......Tell me what camera to buy and how to post pics step by step and I`ll take you up on that offer! I usually shoot 3 shot groups, not five as a test!.............If I can maintain optimum velocity within an 1 1/2" group, that`s all I`m concerned with as a hunting load. I`m not shooting a target rifle here and not concerned with getting 1/4" groups!!

Not interested in using bullets heavier than 200 gr. Why? No point!

Here`s a load you can try right now in your A-bolt that I did......69 gr. RL 19, with a 200 gr. Nosler A/B. My velocity was 2828 fps.

When it comes to filling the tags and the freezer?? I`ll still keep up with the big boys!

So you can crank it up all day about your Wby`s velocities as you always do. If an experienced hunter can`t get er done with a 180 gr. moving at 2900+ fps., it aint going to happen at 3100 or 3200 fps either.

But I have the great pleasure in doing so with a lighter compact!

Certainly the difference will have little to no affect on game.

 

[old #7]

Go with the 30-06AI.
It's out of the ordinary and is fun to hand load for.
Anybody and everyone has an 06 or one of the 300 mag family.
The 06 AI will get close to the 300wm in velocity but what matters most is shot placement and accuracy. You might be able to gain 150fps on your most accurate load.
My Rem 700 06 Ai with a factory 24" bbl shoots a one hundred yard, three round group of 165gr AB/Bt, that touch at 3005 fps. I can get them to fly faster but the accuracy starts to suffer.

 

[bullet]

Well I was hoping to see your results since my 300WSM A-bolt with a 22" barrel was a disappointment but that was my rifle. Oh! By the way, my Mark V 30-06 with new stock will weigh with bases rings and the scope I am putting on it 6 3/4 pounds (empty). Just thought I could get you to see some real time results if you would take the time to do the test. All I can say is that if your velocities are correct then your 20" Ruger out performed my 22" A-bolt and I am sure that is possible.

A man has got to use what he has confidence in when he goes to the field and I know you have confidence in your rifle. Good luck this hunting season and I hope to hear of your success.

 

[Big Squeeze]

Well I was hoping to see your results since my 300WSM A-bolt with a 22" barrel was a disappointment but that was my rifle. Oh! By the way, my Mark V 30-06 with new stock will weigh with bases rings and the scope I am putting on it 6 3/4 pounds (empty). Just thought I could get you to see some real time results if you would take the time to do the test. All I can say is that if your velocities are correct then your 20" Ruger out performed my 22" A-bolt and I am sure that is possible.

A man has got to use what he has confidence in when he goes to the field and I know you have confidence in your rifle. Good luck this hunting season and I hope to hear of your success.

...............My Frontier`s barrel is 16.5" not 20".......My 375 Ruger Alaskan is 20" which BTW I`ve already gotten 3016 fps. with the 225 grainer!

Every rifle is different. Another Frontier like mine may not perform as well. Mine may just have a slightly faster barrel as my smith told me!

Go to the 'reloadersnest" site and check out what a 200 gr. A/B did with 68 gr. of RL 19 and a 24" barrel. He got 2930 fps from his 300 WSM.......So why is it, that when I use 69 gr. (max. for my rifle), its difficult for people to believe that I received 2828 fps.......There are other loads in there too that I based my loadings on!.....Deduct 3.5% to 4.5% off of whatever you see as listed for a 24" 300 WSM and that is what I`ll do in my Frontier on the average......If you do the math, that translates to a 15 to 30 fps. per inch reduction in velocity.

 

[old #7]

I was looking through my load data and found that my most accurate load with 165gr bt/ab's out of my 06 before it was AI'd was averaging 2874 fps.
After the AI conversion the most accurate load averages 3005.
I am sure that some might say 130fps isn't worth it.
It cost me $90 for the conversion. That comes out to $0.69 per fps.
I did get velociteis up to 3080 with the 165 before I started to see slightly flattened primers.
I haven't tried the 180 gr bullet yet and don't know if I will. I like the performance of the 165ab. I am using that gun for deer and maybe black bear and don't see too much of an advantage using the 180 for the intended target.

 

[steve4102]

Cartridge : .30-06 Ack Imp
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler AccuBond 54825
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.332 inch or 84.63 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch or 660.4 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 93 52.00 2392 2287 31730 7850 87.9 1.589
-18.0 95 53.30 2457 2414 34097 8117 89.4 1.543
-16.0 97 54.60 2523 2545 36658 8375 90.9 1.497
-14.0 100 55.90 2589 2680 39434 8621 92.2 1.448
-12.0 102 57.20 2656 2820 42448 8855 93.4 1.400
-10.0 104 58.50 2723 2963 45723 9076 94.6 1.352
-08.0 107 59.80 2790 3111 49286 9281 95.6 1.307
-06.0 109 61.10 2857 3263 53173 9469 96.6 1.263 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 111 62.40 2925 3419 57421 9639 97.4 1.221 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 113 63.70 2992 3579 62071 9790 98.1 1.180 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 116 65.00 3060 3743 67174 9919 98.7 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 118 66.30 3128 3910 72792 10027 99.2 1.102 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 120 67.60 3196 4082 78988 10111 99.6 1.065 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 123 68.90 3263 4256 85854 10169 99.9 1.029 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 125 70.20 3331 4435 93478 10202 100.0 0.995 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 127 71.50 3399 4617 101968 10209 100.0 0.961 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!





Cartridge : .300 Win. Mag.(W)
Bullet : .308, 180, Nosler AccuBond 54825
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 79 60.00 2372 2248 28933 10034 89.1 1.623
-18.0 81 61.50 2433 2365 30882 10377 90.5 1.582
-16.0 83 63.00 2494 2486 32966 10710 91.8 1.541
-14.0 85 64.50 2555 2609 35193 11033 93.0 1.502
-12.0 87 66.00 2617 2737 37577 11342 94.1 1.462
-10.0 89 67.50 2678 2867 40129 11638 95.2 1.416
-08.0 91 69.00 2740 3000 42862 11918 96.1 1.373
-06.0 93 70.50 2801 3137 45792 12182 97.0 1.331
-04.0 95 72.00 2863 3276 48910 12427 97.7 1.291
-02.0 97 73.50 2924 3418 52219 12653 98.4 1.252
+00.0 99 75.00 2985 3562 55753 12858 98.9 1.215 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 101 76.50 3046 3709 59531 13041 99.3 1.179 ! Near Maximum !
+04.0 103 78.00 3107 3858 63573 13201 99.7 1.144 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 104 79.50 3167 4010 67901 13336 99.9 1.111 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 106 81.00 3227 4163 72539 13446 100.0 1.078 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 108 82.50 3287 4318 77516 13533 100.0 1.047 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[steve4102]

Well almost. The SAUM can beat the WSM.

Now, that's funny.