300WSM and pre-64 30-06 range resuts

[tddeangelo]

Made it to the range Tues evening.....

I wanted to reshoot a load for the 300WSM, which was 67.5gr RL19 under a 180gr PT. Last time out, this gave me just under 0.7". I made up 6 more to re-shoot it.

First set of three strung out to close to 1.5" (vertical string). Yikes, but ok, I didn't feel like my shooting was on par there, though, so I shot the next three after a cooling period for the barrel. They went 1.03" with chrono speeds consistent with the last time, in the mid-2800's.

Wasn't thrilled, but it wasn't bad, either.

I had held on to three rounds of 68.0gr that I hadn't shot last time. Let it cool and decided "why not?" and shot them for a group. Here's what it delivered:

Close as I can read my calipers, that's 0.41" center to center. The white center is 1" in diameter. Chrono gave me speeds of 2892, 2898, and 2911. So....time to whip up more of that load and see what it'll do as far as repeating that performance. Needless to say, I was thrilled!

I also shot my pre-64 .30-06. I had shot a load I developed in another rifle and it delivered 1.1" at 100 yards. Not bad at all. Decided to try switching out the 165gr Hornady GMX in that other load for a 165gr PT. Prior load was 57.5gr IMR4350, so I started at 56.5 and went up in 0.5gr increments, with the ogive set to same "length" as the GMX loads.

Curious thing happened. See the pic below (from the 57.0gr load):

For three of four loads, it did the same thing....first round low, second two touching or nearly so. It was suggested that perhaps the barrel screw on the rifle needs the tension adjusted to find the "sweet spot".

Speeds were in the 2700-2800 range for the loads I was running. Slower than I'd hoped, but should be plenty when using a PT. That group also measured about 1.1", so it's still acceptable for hunting purposes, but I'd like to sort out the 1st-shot-low syndrome.

 

[DrMike]

Tom,

Either of those rifles is coming along nicely. I doubt that you have a problem with screw tension, but it is easy enough to check that point. It could be serendipity, but the consistency when we observe such a thing is disconcerting. Nevertheless, at this point, don't rule out the possibility that this is natural distribution of the shots. My basis for saying that is your statement that you observed it on three of four sets. What happened on the fourth set? If you are cleaning between groups, it could be that the rifle is telling you that it needs a moderately fouled barrel to deliver accuracy. On the other hand, if you are shooting from a fouled barrel, it may be speaking to you of technique. You may be settling in and focusing after the first shot. It is somewhat disconcerting when you observe such a phenomenon, but without a larger sample, it is really impossible to draw a conclusion. I do like that the 68.0 grain charge of RL19 is delivering in your 300WSM, however. I would say you have found the sweet spot. On the 30-06, MOA is DRT game. The velocity isn't bad at all; it's about right.

 

[SJB358]

Your 300WSM is just about there. If that kinda group repeats itself a few times, I would say you are pretty much there. It is hard for that kinda group to be a total fluke.

Your 30-06 is shooting pretty well. I would imagine sometime spent messing with the bedding screw might assist. Hard tellin till you turn the screw!

 

[Guy Miner]

Cool.

.300 WSM, a 180 gr Nosler Partition at 2900 fps with better than 1/2 MOA accuracy. I'd say you're done. Good load, good shooting!

.30-06, a 165 gr load @ 2750 fps or so is exactly what mine does, using H4350. It works fine. You may want to play with the rifle or load a little more to get rid of that flyer. An old Model 70 can be a tinkerer's delight... GMX eh? Never used one. Good bullet?

 

[JLC0311]

Great work up on the WSM so far, lets see if it's repeatable.

I agree, the Pre64 Standard weight M70 is a tinkerer's delight. Handfitted and designed to have tension on the barrel with superb accuracy. It took me more than a few loads to get all of the ones I've had to get sorted out right.

I don't think any of us could take a rifle like that and be content with accuracy that was just acceptable for hunting purposes. I would first change things up and try a different powder. In Pre64 30/06s I've always had superior results from IMR4895. I don't think I would touch the barrel screw just yet though, not with the 2 and 3 shots in the groups almost on top of each other.

On a side note if you ever come across any of the old school factory Silvertips, the 1960s era yellow and blue box, those are hands down the best factory loads in any bullet weight in Pre64 '06s.

Good luck and Good Shooting, Jimmy

 

[tddeangelo]

Guy, that group was shot with a 165PT. My "pet" load in my other hunting '06 is a 165gr GMX on 57.5 of IMR4350. Gives mid-2800's and accuracy about like my 300WSM group posted here...in my M70 Classic. I shot it in the pre-64 30-06 and it printed a decent 1.1" group.

I have some hesitation with the GMX, however. It's STELLAR for close shots....which I get a fair amount of. I shot three deer with it so far, the longest shot of the three was about 25 yards. Yes, 25. Two were piled up, one ran about 80 yards. The one that ran was shot about 2-3 ribs behind the shoulder The two piled up were shot through the shoulders.

The wound channel was good, but very controlled. Exits were dime- to nickel-sized. On the deer that ran, some blood was found immediately, but it didn't start to gush for about 15-20 yards. Then it was a trail we followed walking at a normal pace with flashlights (shot that buck right at dark) till we got to the deer. To call it an easy blood trail would be an understatement.

My concern with the GMX is that when I reach out to 200 yards or so...what's the expansion gonna look like? Will it be sufficient?

The PT gives me a good blend, in my opinion, in that it'll open up nicely, but will also penetrate well, too. Hence my interest in making the switch. I could hunt both rifles on my current GMX load and not really be any the worse for it. Was just thinking the PT might shoot better in the pre-64 than the GMX, and I like the bullet a tad better for it's construction.

I must say, I have shot the GMX in my rifle, shot that same load in my dad's M70 FWT XTR, and my pre-64. All were no larger than 1.1-1.2" at 100, with my Classic (in which I developed the load) delivering exceptional accuracy with it. My dad developed loads for his 7-08 with a GMX, and it provided outstanding accuracy. His velocities were in the 2600-2700 range, though, which gave he and I pause to using it to hunt, as it won't take long to bleed that down to speeds that make me uneasy for expanding that bullet. He's used the Sierra ProHunter and the Nosler BT in that rifle, both to good effect.

DrMike.....the rifle did not display this tendency when I shot my GMX load in it, just the batch of PT's. I would think it was a seating depth issue...but usually when I see that it's not FIRST round every time that's low.

In the one group that didn't do this, it still shot #1 low, #2 higher, and then #3 went a bit right, making a pretty even triangle, but a 2" triangle. but hte first shot was still the low shot of the group.

I will re-examine the targets from the GMX loads to see if the same pattern is present,but I don't think it was.

 

[tddeangelo]

Forgot to mention the 300WSM...

The velocities for those three were pretty consistent. I think I had a spread over the 67.5gr charge that was much more variable in the velocities. Seems (from only three shots, I know) that it was far less distributed in velocities at 68.0gr.

Supposed to be a washout here this weekend, but I'm gonna try to get back and verify the 68.0gr. I agree....sub-MOA at 2900 for a 180 in a 300WSM...that's the ticket....if it repeats.

For the '06...I'm not sure if I have any 4895, but I'll look. My initial goal, and a difficult one, is to get acceptable accuracy in 3 rifles with the same load...I want to try to shoot the same load in my Classic and Pre-64, as well as have my dad be able to shoot it in his XTR. It's possible I'll just need to have different loads for my two, and he can pick which he likes best and I'll make some for him.

 

[JLC0311]

Not that difficult of a goal at all TD. My Pre64 Standard, Dad's Savage, and my Uncle's Pre64 Featherweight are all using 168 gr BSTs over 52 grains of IMR4895. Groups at 100 yards run between 1/2 inch to 3/4s with velocities low to mid 2800s.

 

[SJB358]

Supposed to be a washout here this weekend, but I'm gonna try to get back and verify the 68.0gr. I agree....sub-MOA at 2900 for a 180 in a 300WSM...that's the ticket....if it repeats.

I am pretty excited to see how the 300 shakes out Tom, I have my fingers crossed buddy.

I know you will find something for the 30-06, you aren't very far at all...

 

[nvbroncrider]

Nice work Tom!

 

[joelkdouglas]

My -06 prefers 56.0 grains of IMR4350. I only bring it up to say maybe this rifle would prefer a different load. My old -06 barrel preferred 57.5 grains also, but I had to finally give up and figured the new load out. It has turned in some very fine 5-shot groups.

 

[JD338]

Tom,

That is some fine shooting for sure.
For the 30-06, it might be worth adjusting the COL, a 1/4 turn in at a time. You may be able the walk the flyer into the group.

JD338

 

[tddeangelo]

That's my initial thought....try a run of 57.0gr of powder (58.0 shot about the same, although the primers got awful flat) with seat depth increments and see where it dials in.

 

[JD338]

That's my initial thought....try a run of 57.0gr of powder (58.0 shot about the same, although the primers got awful flat) with seat depth increments and see where it dials in.

Tom,

I think you are on the right track. It sounds like 57.0 is MAX in your rifle.

JD338

 

[sask boy]

Tom, I think that you can stop playing with the 300WSM that is a finely tuned piece of machinery.
If you take that this fall there is going to be meat in the freezer 8).

Blessings,
Dan

 

[SJB358]

Tom, I think that you can stop playing with the 300WSM that is a finely tuned piece of machinery.
If you take that this fall there is going to be meat in the freezer 8).

Blessings,
Dan

I like to call it the Model 70 Advantage Dan! :twisted:

 

[tddeangelo]

I would like to see the 165's flying a little faster out of the '06, but I'm not sure exactly why. I have he 300H&H and 300WSM if I want that extra horsepower. I was worried a bit about the GMX needing more velocity to guarantee enough expansion at distance, so I really wanted to try and reach 2900 with them. With the Partition, though, I don't necessarily need the velocity to get the expansion, so I think 2700-2800 should be more than enough. Don't really need to flog that one real hard.

I guess part of my desire to do so is also for my dad, who "tops out" with a 30-06, so I wanted to give him the most "oomph" possible. Still, a 165PT at 2700 isn't to be trifled with, either. It's not a gee-whiz load on the '06, but it'll do, I would imagine even for elk with shots kept within reason.

I really hope the 300 can verify on that load. A 180 knockin' down speeds of 2900 should get almost any animal's attention on impact. My 300H&H was dinging 2800fps on 200gr AB's, which is nothing to sneeze at, either. I gotta get a good stock on that gun (the H&H) and really wring it out.

 

[Guy Miner]

Have to remember that a 165 at 2800 fps is "standard" for .30-06 factory loads. A little over or under that isn't going to hurt a thing.

My old, beat-up '06 has no trouble whacking the 300 yard gong time after time with Nosler 165's at 2750 fps, from the 21" barrel. According to my son, it doesn't have any trouble filling a deer tag either...

Guy

 

[Oldtrader3]

I have easily obtained 3100+ fps with the 165 gr Partition, 69.0 grains of IMR 4350 and magnum match primer. This was with the 26 inch barrelled Model 70 H&H mag. Actually, A to B comparing the .300 H&H to the .300 WSM, they use the same load at very similar velocities.

 

[tddeangelo]

Went back to the range today. Pics/measurements later, but the "bad" news is that the 300WSM didn't repeat the stellar groups from before.

First shot of the day was about 2" from where I expected it. Might have been me not sure. The next three shot into a group that might go under an inch, might not. I'll have to measure it. It's right around an inch.

I shot another group of 3, strong horizontally into about 2.5". I must have had a bad pull in there somewhere. Two at about 3/4" of an inch, one far to the left.

Had two left, they produced about 1/2", maybe 3/4".

The GOOD news is that the first shots of my groups all dropped right on the dot at 12 o'clock right near the edge of the target dot, which is 2" in diameter. That means it's first shot is landing right where I want it, which is good.

The 300H&H got more 200grAB's and RL19 loads this time. 65.5gr seems to bear promise. I got about an inch, probably a little less out of that. 66.3 is supposed to deliver in the high 2800's, so I would suspect that load to be knocking down about 2750 or so, but I didn't have the chrono today. I need to reshoot it anyway. Cycled well, too, with no pressure symptoms. 66.0 opened up more, so I think 65.5 is probably where it's at. I could mess with seat depth, but there's not a ton of wiggle room in the H&H, as the case eats most of the magazine space.

I also took the pre-64 '06. I stayed with the best grouping load from before, which was 57.0gr of IMR4350 and a 165gr PT. From there, I took the length I used before and went LONGER in length by a half-turn on my seating die, then went SHORTER than that initial length by a half turn, and did two more half-turn increments. Lengths ranged from 3.285 to 3.230. I'm not sure I want to go shorter than 3.230, but that was the best shooter. It delivered three shots cleanly under 1" (I'll have to measure later) in a nice triangle. That load chrono'ed before to 2700-2750. That should do.

It looks like I may have to accept the 300WSM being a 1" rifle, give or take 2/10's. It just doesn't want to consistently stay lower. It'll have moments of brilliance, but I think MOA, roughly, is where it seems to be.


In other news, I was DISTRAUGHT today when I pulled the 300H&H out and found bright orange RUST on the barrel. It was just where I wouldn't see it in the cabinet, and I had had the gun out on Friday evening to check how rounds cycled. There's very shallow...VERY shallow...pitting in the barrel now, and enough area to make me nauseous to think about it, much less see it. But...the receiver was reblued when I got it, and the finish wasn't perfect on the barrel, so I'm guessing a reblue by a good smith will do no real harm, especially since I have no interest in selling it and I got a great deal on it so as it was. That'll be something to consider next spring.

Ironically, the pre-64 '06 had some rust starting, to a lesser degree, in the same spot on the barrel. This simply left some mild discoloring to the blueing, and that rifle's finish wasn't perfect either, so it really isn't noticeable now. The 300H&H makes me sick to my stomach. I pulled out every other gun I own and not even a hint of rust on any of them. I can only guess I must have touched the steel in those spots and forgot to wipe them off, but that's really not like me. It's the only explanation I can think of, though.