35 Whelen Imp Range Day

[truck driver]

With the threat of snow and wanting to see if shortening the 200gr AB OAL would solve some of my problems I wanted to go to the range before the snow hit.
So on Monday I was greeted with temps in the 20s and clear skies as the day started so I grabbed the rifle,ammo and my range box and headed to the range.
( right now I've got about 4" of wet heavy snow and it's still rolling )
By the time I got to the range around 0930 it was a balmy 30* with a very light breeze. so I set up the Chrono F1 and set a target out at 100yds.
I started out with last years deer loads 66gr CFE223 OAL 3.390" which averaged 2834.66fps. I had enough left over that I seated the bullet down to 3.330" as shown in the Nosler manual and got 2848.33fps These had been loaded using CCI250 primers. I also loaded some fresh loads in brass that had been annealed since the other brass had numerous loading's in it to make sure I had good neck tension on the bullet. I had a open box of Federal mag primers and decided to use them to see if there would be any difference. 200gr Ab seated to 3.330" with 66grs CFE223 2859.66fps. The first thing I noticed when I shot the last years hunting load was an increase in muzzle velocity of 13fps and another 11fps by changing primer brands. I also noticed a difference velocity spread of 28fps for the CCI and 19fps with the federal, also with the bullet seated out to 3.390" I saw velocity spread of 58fps,why?
I went back and looked at targets and loads from back in the summer when it was 72* to see what if any difference there was and found the velocities higher by around 50-60fps. Checked a load that was suppose to give 3000fps and was very disappointed when it turned out to be way low 68grs went 2953,2921and 2914fps. This has me thinking that I need to get a FC die made up for better neck tension. Here's some pictures of the targets. all targets have 3 shots on them.
How often do you need to anneal brass to get consistent neck tension?
All ideas and comments welcome.

 

[preacher]

I don't know anything about cfe223 but I think its time you (a) do send off a dummy round to LEE for their FCD for your WAI (b) try H322 and (c) a standard primer....just for grins. I did find that 215M primers worked swell with R15 and the heavier bullets, but I and my SIL both use 58gr H322, BR2 primers for 200gr bullets ( I use the X and TTSX and he uses the Hornady 200sp) He prefers to hunt with the 225AB though, and right now I'm not sure what his load is.
I would also load that 200AB so I had a caliber ( .35) of the shank in the neck. I wouldn't care what it looked like, crimp the devil out of it and try again. I actually tried all the powders for the 200X listed in Barnes first manual. No joy at all! Then, I tried the last one listed, the H322. Bingo! I think its just a good balance of burn rate, the almost straight case and the sharp 40 deg shoulder. I could be all wrong...but I can wait until we get to Heaven to prove I'm right! have a ball dude!

 

[truck driver]

OK so I send off a dummy with bullet seated and they will make me a die. Will any bullet due?

 

[preacher]

Yes sir, just load a sized, unprimed case with any bullet and $15 ( I think?) and they will make you one. I really like them. I notice that I can get much more accurate loads if I use a Primer Pocket Uniformer and a flashhole deburring tool along with a good crimp for bullet pull, especially with the monobullets. I have also never had an issue with a long bullet jump in three 35 WAIs and a Mod 750 35 Whelen. I set up for hunting, and I want ultra super duper reliability like my life is dependent upon it, ha. OCD? maybe, but I don't worry about it going "bang" when its 10 deg or 120deg.! You'll get there pard, OR if you just never get what you want, you will rebarrel with a Shilen ( or if you are really mad at it, a Lilja, PacNor, bartlein, Kreiger...its only money! ha) and try again! ha

 

[5shot]

I just use a standard Whelen FCD die with my AI. It only touches the case mouth, so the body taper is irrelevant.

 

[truck driver]

I just got back from the Harrisburg Pa sportsman show and got to talk to Bobby Hart yeah Mr Long Range shooter him self. I showed him the pictures of my groups from my 35 Whelen Imp and he said I should be happy with my groups since the .358 isn't designed to shoot bug holes he aslo said that since the barrel is a factory weight that has been bored out thinner than it was designed to be that it was heating up causing the third shot to be out of the group and since the first shot out of the cold barrel always hits where aimed to not worry about it.
I also got to talk with a Boyd's representative about the off center inletting on my 7RM stock and said I should have called to have it replaced. I asked him why when their website says that a custom ordered stock was not returnable. He said he would discuss the problem with the engineers when he got back from the show. I also told him about Wyo stock problem and he didn't know what to say about it.

 

[preacher]

Hey 5shot- my fireformed cases end up too short to use the standard Whelen FCD. I could have had a minute portion ground off the end of the plunger, but I was using it on a standard Whelen (the Mod 750) at the time. Truckdiriver- you may try that with a standard Whelen FCD, can't hurt much I suppose. sounds like you got advice from the gentleman...I like tiny groups, but in a Medium bore on up, 1 1/2" is a very accurate group, for me. On the really big bores ( 416 on up) 2" was good. I am always surprised when I hear that any rebored rifle turns out to be a tack driver...its nice, but too many variables. Heck, even my prize possession 35 WAI, after I know it is a tack driver, I seldom shoot more than a 2 round group! And certainly nothing wrong with the "one round" group from a cold barrel, ha. I say keep experimenting with it because there's no way that thing can be broke in yet. It might take a 100rds before you get what you want...good trigger time. My first Mod 700 35 WAI I loaded up 100rds of fireforming loads. I used the Speer 220 jammed into the lands with a warm load of whatever suitable powder I had left over from other projects. I used those hundred rounds for practice off hand, kneeling,etc, cleaned the bore down to metal every 15 to 20 rds. It took a few weeks to get them all shot. Then...I started my load workup. It was one slic bore, ha. My next ( and current) Mod 700, just for grins, after it was blueprinted and set up right I had it Cryogenically treated. It worked! Not only did the shots stop walking but the bore did not hardly foul, even with the older Barnes X! Now, after I don't know how many rounds, it just doesn't foul enough to even use WipeOut on it! Go figure. Good luck to you Pard.

 

[5shot]

Hey 5shot- my fireformed cases end up too short to use the standard Whelen FCD. I could have had a minute portion ground off the end of the plunger, but I was using it on a standard Whelen (the Mod 750) at the time.

I'll have to double check that...

 

[SJB358]

After seeing your groups I'd be inclined to keep searing a 1/4 turn deeper at a time. With that 2-1 you'll pull it it. I'd also look at a powder change if you have it as the temp swing may be causing you a little variance as well.

 

[Dwh7271]

After seeing your groups I'd be inclined to keep searing a 1/4 turn deeper at a time.

+1

 

[truck driver]

Thanks for the advise fellows. I have some loaded up seated a 1/4 turn along with some loaded with a different powder. I think my best accuracy is coming from loads right around 2850fps.

 

[SJB358]

I just picked up some H322 today. Going to hit these 200's again with it. Hoping for over 2800 and Whelen sorta accuracy I'm used too.

 

[5shot]

Hey 5shot- my fireformed cases end up too short to use the standard Whelen FCD. I could have had a minute portion ground off the end of the plunger, but I was using it on a standard Whelen (the Mod 750) at the time.

Checked mine, and the mouth goes up into the crimp portion of the die about 0.060", so it is giving me some crimp.

I have a different solution as well - I have a shell holder that has been shortened. That allows you to screw the die down farther without activating the collet, which gave me an additional 0.060" of crimp.

 

[tddeangelo]

Far be it from me to dispute someone with Bob Hart's rep, but my rebored whelen has turned in 1-1.5 minute groups reliably since I had the work done, and that was before I bedded the stock at all.

I goofed the bedding. And caused an issue, but I think I have that beat. Now I need to retune the load, but last I shot it, it gave a perfect triangle group of 1.5" at 100 with 250gr Speers. I don't think the rebore is the culprit.

I'm with Scotty. A little tuning of that load and I bet you find happiness

 

[truck driver]

Far be it from me to dispute someone with Bob Hart's rep, but my rebored whelen has turned in 1-1.5 minute groups reliably since I had the work done, and that was before I bedded the stock at all.

I goofed the bedding. And caused an issue, but I think I have that beat. Now I need to retune the load, but last I shot it, it gave a perfect triangle group of 1.5" at 100 with 250gr Speers. I don't think the rebore is the culprit.

I'm with Scotty. A little tuning of that load and I bet you find happiness

Bobby didn't say the reboring was the problem. he was saying a thinner lighter barrel diameter after reboring was causing the barrel to heat up at the range. He did say he liked my groups I shot with the .35 and that they weren't intended to be target rifles.
He also said a heavier barrel would solve some of the problem form heating. But the cold first shot was always right there and you couldn't ask for much more from a hunting weight barrel.

 

[tddeangelo]

Ehhh.... I still don't buy that entirely. I think it'll do better with some focused load development.

One thing I noticed with my Whelen is that if I don't up my game as far as how I manage the rifle and it's recoil on the bench, it'll be all over the place for groups. I can absolutely see any lapse in my handling of the recoil. Shooting 250's at 2500-2550 like I am, it's not a wimpy recoil. I imagine yours isn't either.

Scotty suggested to me, and it helped a lot, to lay a hand over the front scope ring when shooting. That really tamed that jumpy beast a lot. A tight pull into my shoulder also helps. Where I can be lax with that with almost every other rifle I shoot, the Whelen will tune me up if I don't snug it in tight.

Just some ideas. I think you'll get this one shooting nice tight groups as you work out your load for it.

 

[truck driver]

I here yeah Tom, I learned to hold onto the scope long ago to hold em down. I cradle the AI in a Caldwell bench bag with 3 sand bags under the toe of the stock so it doesn't slip down off my shoulder.

 

[tddeangelo]

Man, I wish you were a tad closer. I'd love to spend some time with that one and my whelen and wring 'em both out!

I almost went Brown-Whelen when I did mine. Die costs pushed me back from it.

 

[gerry]

Rodger the 35's can be very accurate, sometimes they think they are a varmint rifle, my 375 Ruger I used to have was the same way. There may be some merit though with the thought of the light barrel heating up so maybe next time you are out firing 3 shots over a long period of time might bring in that third shot for you. Just a thought.......

 

[preacher]

You "could" send the barreled action off and get it cryogenically treated too. Odds are you keep messing with it and you'll find its sweet spot. I have faith in you Pard! www.Nitrofreeze,com will do it for $50/rifle barrel +$10 for the receiver! Boom!!!