358 and 416 question

[Europe]

Traveling with my granddaughter, so will ask both questions in one post. I was asked my opinion and gave it to Cheyenne, but told her I would also ask for the opinions of others here in the forum.

1. Savage 99 vs Win 88 for her 358 collection. For me the 99, wins, hands down. I would also pick up a BLR before the 88, What say you ?

2. Her Grandfather is thinking about building a 416 Rigby for her husband and she ask which controlled round feed I would use for the build. I prefer the Mauser 98 over the Win 70, or you can get a nice action from Granite mountain, or Mayfield Eng and you will have a superb 98 clone, however they are both a bit pricey. If it was me I would buy a CZ550, which are 98 style actions and go fishing, hunting, or trapping with the time I saved from not building one. what say you ?

 

[DrMike]

The 99 is a true classic in 358. The primary weakness is the wrist of the stock which is known to crack on many Model 99s. It is not unusual to find older Model 99s with repairs to the wrist. The Model 88 chambered in 358 is interesting, if only for the rarity of the chambering. The primary deficit of the Model 88 is getting one to shoot accurately. I agree that the BLR is a great rifle. Given my choice of the three, the BLR definitely would get my nod (and it has done so on three occasions now). This is especially the case when the rifle is being used for field work and not primarily as a collector's item.

I do agree that a CZ would be a good move. I'm not certain I agree that the Model 70 action takes second place to the Model 98 action. Of course, I'm biased (a confirmed Model 70 crank). I do have both actions in rifles, and the Model 70 has never let me down, either in larger bore rifles or in smaller bore rifles. Having said that, I did own one CZ, and I liked it a lot.

There is a lot of sentiment for controlled-round feed on dangerous game rifles. I've heard people speak of the fact that one can chamber a cartridge in a Mauser even when the rifle is upside down. I've never been in a situation when I was chambering while hanging upside down, so I don't know about that. I am a certified Winchester crank, but I wouldn't turn town a Remington chambered in 416 Remington. Were I to make a choice, I would likely opt to secure a Model 70 Safari Express chambered in 416 Remington, or even a Model 70 Alaskan chambered in 375 H&H. There, opinions are pretty much worth what you pay for them, and these are my opinions.

 

[Europe]

Thank you Dr mike. Cheyenne values your opinion, as do I, and we thank you for your response. The 98 vs 70 argument, is like the old Biel vs Alba argument---either/or will get the job done.

Excellent point about the Savage/Browning. Collection--Savage Hunting--Browning,

 

[Blkram]

As for the 358, all 3 makes and models have their advantages and disadvantages. It would really depend on which rifle she likes the balance and feel of most. This can be difficult for Cheyenne given her remote location, but if she knows people who own the three different rifles, even if not in the 358 chambering, just handling the rifles will let het decide which fits and feels best to her.

The 99 has the longest production run, and the most variations in models available, but as Mike pointed out, has seen its share of cracked wrists on their stocks. A little attention to the bedding should take care of this. I have never fired a 99 so can not report personally on is trigger.

The 88 is the most rare rifle in 358 so has that going for it, but can be pricey because of this. Their wrists are also known to crack, but the same solution mentioned above will also address this. The earlier models have the worst triggers, where the later models had some improvements made to the trigger. But this can be learned by the owner through use and adapted to. Spare magazines can be difficult to acquire, as they are cartridge specific. I would like to have one, but if I never do, I will not be disappointed, as I now have an 88 in 284 Win.

The BLR has several variations available with the reintroduction of the rifle by Browning. Because of the two piece stock design, you do not have the cracked wrist issue of the 88 & 99's. The Belgian manufactured models are a little nicer in my opinion, but are harder to find and usually more pricey. And not all variations use the same magazine, so beware of your model when acquiring spare magazines. Again, the triggers are not great, nor easily adjusted. I have learned where mine breaks and can get good groups with it, but a better trigger would be nicer. I am living with it just fine. One of my favourite rifles. Not perfect, but since I am not perfect either, it suits me fine! LOL

As for the 416, the Rigby is definitely a classic, and how could anyone go wrong with the CZ?
As for the other 98/70 variants, they are all good. One not mentioned is the Montana 1999 action. I built my 416 ( into the Taylor version) on a Ruger Model 77 because it was available and the right price! (Same for my 376 Steyr and my next to be rebarrelled to the 9.3x62).
I would have been just as happy building them on model 700's, there just weren't any available at the time.
And since I do not intend to be shooting the rifle while hanging upside down from a tree branch, an elephant's trunk or flying through the air after having been tossed by a Cape buffalo or brown bear, I am not worried about controlled round feeding. And with today's powders, and not pushing every load to max, extraction of the case in hot or cold climates should not be the issue it was when the Rigby cartridge was developed.

What action and its safety is Cheyenne's husband most comfortable and familiar with? This might be the more important question. Does he have a preferences?

 

[salmonchaser]

I think the safety consideration would be the tiebreaker for me.
I love the 99. My ex has my 250/3000; my nephew my .308. I like the BLR as well.
My ex FIL and BIL owned 88s. They loved them.


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[Europe]

Gil, thank you for the very informative post. this will be great information for her, and her husband.
thank you!

Gil, you mentioned Remington 700. correct me if I am wrong, but if one was going to use a Remington action, I think I would be more inclined to use a Remington 798. am I wrong.

Gil, Dr Mike, there is no doubt that with todays bullets and variations of actions, good actions, that the controlled round feed is not as necessary as in the past. However (-:-- the proverbial , however------I have seen the cases stick when hunting in equator countries with a push feed. I have also seen and have actually done so myself, chambered a round while flat on my back, without a doubt the nostalgia of hunting with a rifle in Africa that one of your favorite authors used too hunt Africa with enters into it a bit, but in my case, if I am hunting Lion, Leopard, Cape Buffalo, Elephant, or even Hippo ( on land ) or even a coastal Griz, I prefer to have as many things in my favor as possible, but you know the old saying, my advise and nickel will buy you absolutely nothing lol

salmonchaser --the safety consideration between the 99 and 88 in the 358, please explain further sir, as I am not sure I understand the point you are making, and thank you for your contribution

 

[Blkram]

April, no wrong answer there. Remington's 798 is a Mauser action. The model 700 is available long enough for the Rigby, if desired.

Your experiences in the field are well shared and received. And obviously weighs on your preference for controlled feed actions. I cannot respond from first hand experience. I can share that I have read many accounts for and against controlled feed vs push feed actions for dangerous game hunting in the extreme climates. I do tend to believe that it is not the issue it once was with our newer powders and quality of the factory ammo produced today.

I do know that from field and range practice and experience that the push feeds will cycle cartridges when on their side. I was making a little fun on the upside down topic above! LOL

I do think that there are choices, and many tend to make choices on availability, price and familiarity. This last point probably makes more decisions than accounted for. We get comfortable with a certain type through experience in use and handling and tend to stay in our comfort zones. Whether it be action type, rifle manufacturer or safety design.

At the very least,we have choices. Then we get the fun of defending our choices! The challenge is to respect others and their choices. We can only ask for respect, when we give respect! We need to keep it fun, too.

 

[hunternyny]

April, no wrong answer there. Remington's 798 is a Mauser action. The model 700 is available long enough for the Rigby, if desired.

Your experiences in the field are well shared and received. And obviously weighs on your preference for controlled feed actions. I cannot respond from first hand experience. I can share that I have read many accounts for and against controlled feed vs push feed actions for dangerous game hunting in the extreme climates. I do tend to believe that it is not the issue it once was with our newer powders and quality of the factory ammo produced today.

I do know that from field and range practice and experience that the push feeds will cycle cartridges when on their side. I was making a little fun on the upside down topic above! LOL

I do think that there are choices, and many tend to make choices on availability, price and familiarity. This last point probably makes more decisions than accounted for. We get comfortable with a certain type through experience in use and handling and tend to stay in our comfort zones. Whether it be action type, rifle manufacturer or safety design.

At the very least,we have choices. Then we get the fun of defending our choices! The challenge is to respect others and their choices. We can only ask for respect, when we give respect! We need to keep it fun, too.

Hear ! Hear !

 

[salmonchaser]

Poor writing style on my part.
My intention was to offer a solution to the 416 project. I would pick the action/safety I was most familiar with.


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[DrMike]

I can testify that Gil does not make a habit of shooting from an upside down prone position. Myself, to the contrary... Well, let's just say that I've been compelled to view the hunt from a different position on occasion. Did I ever tell you about the time Gil sat on my back and beat me while we were elk hunting, April? Hard to shoot an elk when he parks his frame on my wee body.

 

[truck driver]

The one and only Savage 99 I have owned came to me with both side panels cracked threw the tang. This area can not take a lot of side pressure and will split out threw the wrist.
I had to remove the butt stock and do some extensive repairs rebuilding the wrist from the inside with bedding epoxy. It took more work then just gluing everything back together.
The trigger sear can be polished to give a very clean break. The safety is something you have to get use to and it also locks the lever.
If I had to have a rifle that I would have to depend on in a remote area though the Savage is a great classic eastern woods deer rifle I wouldn't recommend it for the Yukon and the BLR would be my choice if it had to be a lever action. Like DrMike just my 2cents worth.

 

[Africa Huntress]

Cheyenne, in speaking with my father who has always enjoyed collecting and using lever action rifles, he believes the money you would spend on a 99 in good condition, almost dictates that it should be put in your "collector" rifle safe. If you want a 358 for hunting then you should buy the Browning. However, since you have the 348 and like it, it would serve no practical purpose to get the 358, as whatever difference there is between them is minimal at best.

As he has mentioned to you in the past no lever action rifle collection is complete without a couple of Win 95's, and he would suggest you try to get a 405 and 30-40 Krag before they become even more expensive than they now are.

Dr Mike, Gil, April. When it comes to what action is best, we are unable to agree within our family. Dad insists on using a pre 64 Win 70 and Mum insists on using a Mauser 98 ( are a clone thereof ). they have decided to agree that they disagree and leave it at that. For the record they also disagree on who makes the best truck, so it isn't just rifle actions that folks have differing opinions, which brings me to my next statement

Gil, the last sentence of your post above is such a fine statement and I agree wholeheartedly.

Best regards

Jamila

ps, Gil there has got to be more to the story than Dr Mike is telling us about you setting on his back, in the woods. I am just glad nobody happened along and saw you two LOL

 

[DrMike]

Oh, Jamila, the stories I could tell. However, I am a model of discretion when it comes to divulging all of Gil's predilection toward his erstwhile hunting partner. He can be an absolute problem when it comes to hunting.

 

[Anonymous]

I would have to agree with others... if I wanted a .358 for hunting, I'd take a BLR. For a collector the 99 would have a lot more interest.

I really liked my Rigby, quite a bit, but found it really too much of a good thing for a degenerating disk in my neck. I was also offered a tidy sum for it- which eased my decision considerably. I sometimes think I should have held onto it with the matching Express in .270.

I'm not sure you can stuff a Rigby into a M70 or a M700 action without a lot of hysterics- that Rigby case is just darn big in every dimension. I believe Roy Weatherby simply stuck a belt on the Rigby case and made his giant .378 case out of it.

Mine was a Ruger Magnum and it was a pretty sharp rifle. My partner has a CZ550 and I think they're a little rough out of the box but they seem to respond well to some custom work. The Montana 99 action comes in their super sized Professional Hunter series, I believe it is larger than a standard M70 action. If I wanted to build another- I'd most likely start there.

If you wanted the same ballistics- you can get a .416 Remington, .416 Taylor, or even the .416 Ruger and stick them in "normal" long actions...but they sure lack the panache of the Rigby.

 

[5shot]

The 98 vs 70 argument, is like the old Biel vs Alba argument---either/or will get the job done.

I believe that the answer for either situation is "both".

 

[c. schutte]

April,

Since I've never been on a dangerous game hunt my opinion does not count. As you know, I am doing something similar and as usual, do a little bit of homework along with seeking the advice of those whom I trust. One of the articles I stumbled across was a very good read. About 4 to 5 minutes of your time but, a very good read from a very opinionated fellow.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/r ... exam.2604/

 

[Anonymous]

a very good read from a very opinionated fellow.

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/r ... exam.2604/

Great read! Thanks for sharing.

 

[IdahoCTD]

Most don't recommend running a Rigby/Lapua bolt face on a Remington 700 even though they make a 338 Lapua factory rifle. I've built several Rem. 700's with the .588" case head size calibers without issues. The Winchesters are even worse because of the 1"x16tpi threads. It makes the chamber walls too thin. It's probably smart to avoid standard 98 Mauser variants too like the Remington 798, Interarms Mark X, Charles Daily, etc. The magnum Mauser actions would be where I would look (like the CZ550, Ruger, Montana, etc.) unless a 416 Remington, Taylor, or Ruger would work. If they work then about any action would work. Defiance makes a custom CRF action but I'm not sure of they do it for the Lapua/Rigby bolt face.

 

[Blkram]

Oh, Jamila, the stories I could tell. However, I am a model of discretion when it comes to divulging all of Gil's predilection toward his erstwhile hunting partner. He can be an absolute problem when it comes to hunting.

I see Pa Pinnochio (aka DrMike) is at it again!
If only there was a meter on here so that you could rate how tall some of his stories are, you'd get a true appreciation for Mike's storytelling abilities! LOL

I have told him on more than one occasion that St. Peter is going to close those Pearly Gates when he sees the good Dr coming, and throw away the key, telling Mike "we need to have a chat before you get in to see the the Big Guy!". LOL

You just cannot spend 18 years hunting and fishing with someone and not come up with some great stories to tell of all the shared adventures! Hopefully we can share another 18...even if I have to throw a chain on him and drag him along!

 

[Africa Huntress]

Most don't recommend running a Rigby/Lapua bolt face on a Remington 700 even though they make a 338 Lapua factory rifle. I've built several Rem. 700's with the .588" case head size calibers without issues. The Winchesters are even worse because of the 1"x16tpi threads. It makes the chamber walls too thin. It's probably smart to avoid standard 98 Mauser variants too like the Remington 798, Interarms Mark X, Charles Daily, etc. The magnum Mauser actions would be where I would look (like the CZ550, Ruger, Montana, etc.) unless a 416 Remington, Taylor, or Ruger would work. If they work then about any action would work. Defiance makes a custom CRF action but I'm not sure of they do it for the Lapua/Rigby bolt face.

Although I know I will receive grief for this post, I want to advise those who are friends of ours, who are currently working or going to work on projects that this thread might influence.

Cheyenne and Charles

Idahoctd makes good points in his post and to carry it a bit further if I may.

Hodgeman stated that the CZ is a bit rough out of the box and he is correct, but the CZ will come into its own, just as he indicated. Also as suggested by IdahoCTD, Defiance makes a nice action but to my knowledge they do not make one that will work in this instance. As has been suggested Montana does make a nice action, as does Granite Mountain, Mayfield Eng and Holland and Holland.

Also Cheyenne your husbands Weatherby and Charles your Jeffery and Brenneke is all you would need to legally hunt Africa and all are more than adequate unless your just looking to add to your arsenal, and if so from a nostalgia stand point the 416 Rigby accomplishes that.

Gil------ LOVED your last post, it brought a smile to my face at just the right time as it has been a challenging 24 hours for me, business wise, thank you

Best Regards

Jamila