40S&W

[Brinky72]

How and why did it become the bastard child? I’ve been in law enforcement for 24 years now and was a USAF MP for almost five more so I’ve been packing a duty side arm since 91‘ Beretta 92F 9mm, Sigs 9 mm-40 cal , S&W 640 and a host of Glocks. I’ve owned a handful of other pistols in various calibers. Listening to several podcasts were they have basically said that the 40S&W was the bastard child and that the 9mm was again the new golden child. I’m not denying this but never understood why. I’m not claiming to being an expert on the effects of either on human targets but, i have seen their respective performance on animals in various stages of injury. I will tell you without a doubt that a 180 bullet out of a 40 S&W will dispatch a wounded animal up to the size of a cow much more effectively than anything out of a 9mm. And that includes the latest and greatest FBI approved (which doesn’t mean much IMO) HST ammunition. It’s an across the board opinion in my circle that the 9mm is a concession so we can cater to the lowest common denominator so those people can qualify due t its friendly recoil. In a perfect world we would all have 45’s and I always thought that the 40 was much better than the 9 and a much better compromise in a duty weapon. Anything done with 9 ammo can be done with the 40 and 45 to make it better. I guess I just don’t see the hype of a 9mm. My current preference that I own is a Sig 229 DA/SA and I have a set of 21lb springs in the cart for it. It will be my go to until I get a 45.

 

[xphunter]

40's work!
Bullet technology (design and weight) has helped the 9mm tremendously.
I have seen both do a good job on tissue.

 

[Guy Miner]

I think it comes down to two things:

9mm is significantly cheaper when buying thousands of rounds for training and duty use.

9mm kicks significantly less and is easier to shoot well.

I carried my 45 1911 for my entire career and still shoot it pretty well.

40 is just fine as far as I'm concerned.

Guy

 

[300WSM]

It's nothing more than $$$

Dept's get budgets and some are not supplied with anything but their personnel are responsible for buying the arm and ammo. Practice, qualify and or carry no matter. They buy their own and claim it all at years end.
Thus the path many small departments have taken.

The other thing that's happened, although it's still dolla bills related in the end, is the performance of bullets have improved tremendously over the last 20/30 years.
The same old still happens. Reps from differnt places go in and schmooze the decision maker and whoever he likes the most usually get's that contract.
If they can save $50,000.00 on arms and ammo what other equipment can they purchase with that? Another patrol car? Tactical gear? Updated computers and software? Maybe the jail needs a new kitchen remodel.

Who knows but the 9mm had definitely made a comeback and it's most definitely dollars driven.

 

[flyingagg]

First, I ONLY carry SA/DA, chambered round, hammer dropped. Pull out, point and shoot Caliber depends on where I will be, level of "need".
Low - Sig P226 9mm, 15 round
Med - Sig 229 40S&W 12 round (Stainless, heave, but recoil is lighter)
High - FNP 45 14 round. (Stainless slide, polymer frame)
I do have a P226 in .357Sig, but thats the Texas DPS 75th anniversary. so no shooting it

 

[300WSM]

First, I ONLY carry SA/DA, chambered round, hammer dropped. Pull out, point and shoot Caliber depends on where I will be, level of "need".
Low - Sig P226 9mm, 15 round
Med - Sig 229 40S&W 12 round (Stainless, heave, but recoil is lighter)
High - FNP 45 14 round. (Stainless slide, polymer frame)
I do have a P226 in .357Sig, but thats the Texas DPS 75th anniversary. so no shooting it

I carry as much firepower as I can comfortably carry.

Jacket weather months around here I carry a Colt 1911 or Glock 23.
Really depends more on where and how long I might have to wear the coat. The Glock is always lighter.

If it's shorts type weather I carry a Colt Mustang 380 polymer frame.

I used to despise 380's and 9mm's but bullet technology has improved drastically.
I've done testing on that TacXP bullet from Barnes in the .380
Absolutely positively terminal.

 

[Vince]

I used to have, and carry, a Sig 226.

I always thought the 357 Sig was a much superior round than the “fortay” for bipedal aggressors. It took a long time for the 40 S&W to grow on me.

Most of us regular posters are old enough to remember the FBI Miami Shootout. The forty was developed as a result of that after the Famous But Incompetent found the 10mm to be too much of a good thing. An improvement on the forty short and weak was the 357 Sig in my opinion. Proof of that is that it was the round carried by the Secret Service.

9mm is dependent on bullet selection. The larger rounds leave a little more margin for error. It’s kind of like the guy that hunts deer with a .338 Win Mag. Oh wait………I’m that guy.

The bean counters aren’t the ones getting in shootouts with bad guys. They only look at the numbers. It cost money to train a cop and keep them qualified with the issued duty weapon. If they could do it with a Nerf Gun, because it’s cheaper, they would. Also, a cop’s funeral is cheaper than a lawsuit from a dead bad guy’s family. We all know that the dead guy was a, “good boy who was just turning his life around and could’ve been someone if the mean police hadn’t killed him.”

So, as earlier stated, it’s a numbers and money thing.

Vince

Edit to add:

I have a couple of forties. I carry the 155 grain Border Patrol load. I’m about to try some 180 grain loads to see how they do in my guns. I also carry a few 9mm guns. Depending on the gun I load either the old 9mm +P+ BPLE load or the 147 grain JHP duty load.

 

[flyingagg]

I carry as much firepower as I can comfortably carry.

Jacket weather months around here I carry a Colt 1911 or Glock 23.
Really depends more on where and how long I might have to wear the coat. The Glock is always lighter.

If it's shorts type weather I carry a Colt Mustang 380 polymer frame.

I used to despise 380's and 9mm's but bullet technology has improved drastically.
I've done testing on that TacXP bullet from Barnes in the .380
Absolutely positively terminal.

I used to have a Colt Model 70 Covernment in 380, satin, I regret so much I sold it, like 30 years ago. I do have Sig P938, 9mm, 7round, but its single action, similar to the Colt. Its a pocket gun, and I practiced cocking it as I pull it out of my pocket.

 

[Brinky72]

I have no doubt it’s money but as far as I’m concerned anything that the nine can do a 40 does better and the 45 will duplicate the gap with the 40. Bullet technology works well across the board. What’s good for the 9 is good for them all. My handloads with my nothing special 155 and 180 gold dots are running right at 1200 and 1030 fps respectively. That’s using blue dot book loads and chronographed at ten feet. Throw in a heavier spring kit and +P loads and it will really shine. The 9mm works for the bean counters I guess but that’s as much as I’ll give it. Long gone are the days of people who make decisions listening to the people who have deal with them.

 

[salmonchaser]

I was an instructor in Washington at the same time Guy was. We ran 40s and 45s for quite a while. Recoil was an issue with the 40 as was grip size on the Glock 21 And 22. When I finally promoted to Lt. and was placed in charge of the range, training ammo doubled, the list of acceptable duty pistols went from 2 (Glock 22 and 21) to 6, and included the 1911 and Glock 19 &17. We had 100 sworn officers and after the 1911 became available I think 2 carried the 40. About 1/2 the department carried the 1911, some retained their Glock 21s, (about 25%)the remainder carried the 19 or 17 depending on assignment. Swat all carried 45s.
The three shooting review boards I was on involving the 1911; Bad guys still lost, good guys fired fewer rounds, detectives were happy as they had far less brass to locate on rainy cold nights and there were only two errant rounds with the 1911. Can’t say the same for the Glocks, well other than all my guys went home healthy.
From an administrative standpoint it was a Fricking nightmare. Three different calibers for duty; Offduty carry added 380, 38/357 to my inventory problems.
Needed a minimum of 7 of each duty pistol in reserve in case an entire squad was involved in a shooting and they happened to to all Cary the same gun.
my understanding is my old department went back to one size fits all (9mm) after I retired.

 

[TackDriver284]

I guess I just don’t see the hype of a 9mm. My current preference that I own is a Sig 229 DA/SA and I have a set of 21lb springs in the cart for it. It will be my go to until I get a 45.

I have a 9mm , two .40 cals, a .38 Super and a. 45, they all are nice. My main daily carry is my .40 cal Sig P239 with 8 rounds, and I also have a P229 Equinox in DA/ SA as well. If I preferred the 40 cal for daily carry, its for a good reason. Some may complain of the sharp kick of the 40 cals for follow up shots, but it don't bother me none. The .40 has the knockdown power to incapitate an armed intruder quicker than a 9mm imo, just like the .45
I leave the 9mm for my wife to use in the home. The size of the P239 just fits IWB nicely and its not to bulky to use as a daily carry. I just carry those 155 grain Winchester Silvertips or the SXT. I use the 180's as well for the larger P229.

 

[300WSM]

I used to have, and carry, a Sig 226.

I always thought the 357 Sig was a much superior round than the “fortay” for bipedal aggressors. It took a long time for the 40 S&W to grow on me.

Most of us regular posters are old enough to remember the FBI Miami Shootout. The forty was developed as a result of that after the Famous But Incompetent found the 10mm to be too much of a good thing. An improvement on the forty short and weak was the 357 Sig in my opinion. Proof of that is that it was the round carried by the Secret Service.

9mm is dependent on bullet selection. The larger rounds leave a little more margin for error. It’s kind of like the guy that hunts deer with a .338 Win Mag. Oh wait………I’m that guy.

The bean counters aren’t the ones getting in shootouts with bad guys. They only look at the numbers. It cost money to train a cop and keep them qualified with the issued duty weapon. If they could do it with a Nerf Gun, because it’s cheaper, they would. Also, a cop’s funeral is cheaper than a lawsuit from a dead bad guy’s family. We all know that the dead guy was a, “good boy who was just turning his life around and could’ve been someone if the mean police hadn’t killed him.”

So, as earlier stated, it’s a numbers and money thing.

Vince

Edit to add:

I have a couple of forties. I carry the 155 grain Border Patrol load. I’m about to try some 180 grain loads to see how they do in my guns. I also carry a few 9mm guns. Depending on the gun I load either the old 9mm +P+ BPLE load or the 147 grain JHP duty load.

I carry the same round...

A friend of mine trains Border Patrol agents and their ammo is...or at least was...
Federal classic Hi-shok 40 S&W 155gr...
Not hydrashok...
Federal classic Hi-shok

It shoots well!

 

[300WSM]

I used to have a Colt Model 70 Covernment in 380, satin, I regret so much I sold it, like 30 years ago. I do have Sig P938, 9mm, 7round, but its single action, similar to the Colt. Its a pocket gun, and I practiced cocking it as I pull it out of my pocket.

Practice is everything.
I have a in the pocket holster for the Mustang and all in one motion i can pull the weapon from pocket manipulating my fingers to remove it out the holster all in same motion.

(The damn front sight would eat a hole in my clothing)

 

[Vince]

I carry the same round...

A friend of mine trains Border Patrol agents and their ammo is...or at least was...
Federal classic Hi-shok 40 S&W 155gr...
Not hydrashok...
Federal classic Hi-shok

It shoots well!

I got most of my ammo for the forty from the generous BP.

Being a former fed I used to shoot with the BP for fun. They qualified daily, weekdays excluding holidays, at a range I used to frequent. I liked to shoot their M4’s as they had a FUN switch.

Vince

 

[xphunter]

I got most of my ammo for the forty from the generous BP.

Being a former fed I used to shoot with the BP for fun. They qualified daily, weekdays excluding holidays, at a range I used to frequent. I liked to shoot their M4’s as they had a FUN switch.

Vince

Regular BP or their upper tier groups?

 

[rjm158]

Just prior to my retirement I was a member of a committee tasked with choosing a new duty gun for my agency and to consider changing from 40 to 9mm. We called/emailed numerous departments/ agencies of all sizes, urban and rural, and the overall findings were:

A majority of the officers on the agencies polled preferred the 9mm. Some allowed a choice between 9mm/40/45 but the latter two were in a very marked minority.

Shooting scores and actual hits in gunfights rose using the 9mm compared to 40s using the same guns. Additionally, this gave the officers more confidence in their abilities and weapons.

Striker fired guns are easier to train officers on and contributed to the higher scores/hits because of the consistent trigger pull every time.

A factor to consider when reading the above, and to the responses of forum members, is there are a lot of officers who are NOT gun people. They shoot only when required and, as one new officer I was training told me, " I consider my gun a tool I have to bring to work with me but never expect to use." I think it's safe to say forum members who have contributed to this thread are not in this category.

I, personally, have 9s, 10s, 40s, and 45s but most often carry a S&W Shield Plus Performance Center 9mm loaded with Underwood 147 gr. +P+ Gold Dots. It is easily concealable, lightweight, and has proven itself reliable and accurate.

Ron

 

[Vince]

Regular BP or their upper tier groups?

Just regular BP quarterly quals.

 

[salmonchaser]

Just prior to my retirement I was a member of a committee tasked with choosing a new duty gun for my agency and to consider changing from 40 to 9mm. We called/emailed numerous departments/ agencies of all sizes, urban and rural, and the overall findings were:

A majority of the officers on the agencies polled preferred the 9mm. Some allowed a choice between 9mm/40/45 but the latter two were in a very marked minority.

Shooting scores and actual hits in gunfights rose using the 9mm compared to 40s using the same guns. Additionally, this gave the officers more confidence in their abilities and weapons.

Striker fired guns are easier to train officers on and contributed to the higher scores/hits because of the consistent trigger pull every time.

A factor to consider when reading the above, and to the responses of forum members, is there are a lot of officers who are NOT gun people. They shoot only when required and, as one new officer I was training told me, " I consider my gun a tool I have to bring to work with me but never expect to use." I think it's safe to say forum members who have contributed to this thread are not in this category.

I, personally, have 9s, 10s, 40s, and 45s but most often carry a S&W Shield Plus Performance Center 9mm loaded with Underwood 147 gr. +P+ Gold Dots. It is easily concealable, lightweight, and has proven itself reliable and accurate.

Ron

Been retired for 12 years now, looking back I think this is a pretty fair assessment. In particular having to drag officers down into the range kicking and screaming. I had a love/hate relationship with the Glock. Probably the easiest system to train people on, definitely cop proof, mostly.

 

[flyingagg]

I certainly do not have the experience all you law enforcement people have. I am just a casual user. Personally I do not like striker systems at all. The only one I have it is the FNH Five-SeveN, and only bought that for the kids. I just prefer the single action after the first shot, But that is a personal preference.

 

[Vince]

I’ll just throw this out there since the subject of striker fired Blocks has arisen.

Replace the Glock trigger bar with a minus trigger bar and put in a NY1 trigger spring. If you’re used to shooting double action revolvers I think you will like it.

Vince