.410 slugs for deer?

[bbearhntr]

Gentlemen, I hope this doesn't turn ugly. My daughter is 11 years old and will be deer hunting this weekend for the second year. We live in Wisconsin and she shoots my .223 WSSM very well but is very recoil sensitive. We were only able to hunt one day during our states youth hunt this fall. I have relatives with property in Minnesota and the youth season over there starts this Thursday. We are excited to try again. The only problem is the area we have to hunt in is shotgun, muzzleloader, or handgun only. I inherited my grandfathers .410 2 years ago and I know he used to take it in the field for deer but I'm not sure of its capabilities. What are your thoughts?

 

[Rem Jim]

I pack-shoot a Stevens SXS .410 for grouse and when out i do pack Federal Slugs just in case a GIANT 200 inch Mule deer happens to step out in front of me - i would not hesitate to stuff one or two of those lead slugs into his lungs if he was within 50 yards of me AND LEGAL TO DO but here is BC it is not ! :shock: - need a 20 gauge or larger ! :roll: :grin: RJ

 

[Oldtrader3]

Here are the parameters of the load. The slug is 85 grs in a 2-1/2 inch load, 112 grains in a 3 inch load (Winchester Super X). Diameter is .390/.396. This is about the same as a .357 magnum with 1300 fps velocity. Many people hunt deer with the .357 revolvers but limit use to 100 yards. I think that the same applies here.

 

[gerry]

Not sure about other areas but I'm fairly sure they would be illegal in B.C. IIRC we have a 20 gauge minimum. With that said even where they are legal I would want to do a penetration test just to see how far the little slugs would actually go.

 

[Oldtrader3]

They would be illegal here in Washington as well because of gauge requirement of 20 gauge minimum.

 

[350JR]

Just an opinion, no expert, but Ive lived and hunted in a state using shotgun slugs all my life and only the past 4 years and this one has allowed any kind of rifle at all and only roughly? 15 years could we use a handgun.

Short note, a repeat, too that Ive butcherd over 3500 of these mostly slug killed deer and some of them were with a 410 slug that was legalized not so very long ago. It's not odd for much larger slugs to not go through...believe it or not.

The 410 slug is capable of a clean deer on a deer but I personally would take pains for this young one to enjoy the hunt and hopefully make a successful one by making shots very limited in range.

The suggested 50 yards above for max also gets my vote.

Personal experience with 20 gauge foster type slug that you may be using has me putting a 75 yard limit on IT.....MAX, 50 is more like it truthfully. Just last year I shot a decent 8 point (eastern count) whitetail with my 20 gauge shooting standard foster type slugs at a whopping 15 FEET. I knew, of course, that the shot was lethal but I shot from a 15 foot stand and the slug NEVER WENT THRU and left NO blood trail for the 80 yards the buck ran.

I was able to view the buck fall twice before he left the woods and knew he was not going very far but just clipping the scapula in that downward shot slowed the slug enough that while it pulverized the lungs, the slug never passed through. NOT ONE SINGLE DROP OF BLOOD.

There is a good test on the 410 slugs in the link below. Good or bad I will let you judge for yourself but "limited in power" is part of my description of such and I would personally, even if I were the hunter, limit shots to shots very similar to what I have taken whitetail with using archery equipment and ONLY broadside shots.

http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/slugtest/index.htm

Takes special note that these groups were shot at 25 yards as well as the penetration and "bullet" performance.

Again, only my opinion and as always there are those out there online that feel differently but , no offense to anyone, a 410 slug is WAY underpowered for any type of longer shot, on the average. Work? Yes.....but iffy at best.

50 yards gets my vote too for your young hunter.

God Bless you and yours and especially for passing on the hunting tradition to the youth of your family!!!
Steve

 

[JD338]

Personally, I feel the .410 slug is too small for deer hunting and would opt for a 20 ga.
The heavier weight of the 20 ga along with one of the low recoil slug loads might end up being a wash when compared to the recoil of the .410 in a lighter weight gun.

Either way, I would also recommend getting a scope mounted for better accuracy and pin point shot placement. A wounded and unrecovered deer would not be a good experience for your daughter.

Another option might be going to black powder. A 240 gr bullet with 80-90 grs black powder in a scoped muzzle loader would weigh 8-8.5 lbs and be pretty easy on the shoulder.

JD338

 

[FOTIS]

Personally, I feel the .410 slug is too small for deer hunting and would opt for a 20 ga.
The heavier weight of the 20 ga along with one of the low recoil slug loads might end up being a wash when compared to the recoil of the .410 in a lighter weight gun.

JD338

I totally agree

 

[cloverleaf]

Well, having been in self imposed exil here in Mn for far to long I will say one thing. Slugs tend to kick obscenely. I hate 'em but have no choice in the zone I hunt. I know several peopel who have used .410 slugs for deer. Cant say that Ive heard anything worse about 410 than I have heard about anything else. I will give you a couple pieces of unsolicited advice:
I have a friend who has been teaching kids to shoot trap for years. His advice is to ALWAYS start a youngster with a good fitting 12 ga. and light target loads. His theroy is that the extra weight of the 12 does more to dampen recoil than the lack of powder in a light weight .410. IF she can handle the weight, maybe some managed recoil slugs from Remington in a 12 are a possibility. Its what I did for my daughter.
A 20 ga is another option. I think I read some where that a 20ga delivers the energy of a 45-70 inside 100yds. That would do. :shock:

I would suggest that a 410 is capable of doing the job inside 50yds. IF its accurate enough. That could be a big if. some of those older guns were full choked and thjey tend to squirt slugs out in a pretty big pattern. My slug gun will be an ancient Ithica model 37 slug gun (improved cylinder) in 16ga. That actually is listed with less energy and velocity than Hornady 20 ga slugs.

I love to see a young person have a good time so if I can help some how and you a coming throughthe Cities on the way PM me and maybe we can get her set up. CL

 

[vincewarde]

If you reload - and why would you be on this sight if you didn't - how about some reduced loads for the .223 WSM, or another firearm she can handle well? Whitetails are bigger than the Blacktails we have out here in CA, but with a good bullet I would feel very confident shooting a CA deer with a .223. Why couldn't you just "download" the .223 WSM to .223 levels? I have to wonder if her problem is more the blast than the recoil and .223s aren't too bad in that department. The wonderful thing about reloading is that you are not limited to what the factory offers.

IMHO there is a huge difference between a .357 Jacketed Hollow Point and a .410 slug. The slug is not going to expand - the hollow point likely will. However, even a .357 from a revolver is a lot less powerful than a .223.

Just a thought......

 

[DrMike]

Vince,

Welcome to the forum. We're pleased to see you here. You have some fine thoughts in your post. Some jurisdictions will not permit 22 calibre bullets to be used. However, applying your idea in those jurisdictions that have calibre restrictions, there is no reason one couldn't use a .243 Win or even a .257 Roberts to achieve the same end result. Thanks for posting.

 

[Luv2Hunt]

There is an older couple not far from me that take a couple of deer every fall. He uses a single-shot 20 gauge and she uses a single-shot 410. They hunt thick cover, are patient to wait for an excellent shot, and just consider it a matter of fact. I would personally prefer something else, but know your limitations, stay within them, and it will work.

 

[SJB358]

I have seen a few deer shot with the 410 with slugs. Used within its range and put into the lungs, it'll work fine. It isn't a super killer, but for short shots, It'll work. Someone will be there to watch the shots, so I am betting bad shot angle's can be avoided. Good luck. Hope she scores!

 

[Woodycreek]

I have also seen the 410 in use with slugs and buckshot. Effective enough on deer out to 30 yards with a broadside shot. Had a young guy in the club last year take a deer clean at 15 yards with one shot of 00 buckshot.

 

[bbearhntr]

Thanks for your thoughts fellas!
I know this is a little late but we were busy hunting :grin:
I ended up convincing my daughter to carry one of my muzzleloaders in the field. I had to beg and plead with her just to get her to try shooting it. Lets just say that she is very nervous and timid by nature and after a few tears flowed she finally mustered up the gumption to touch off a round from the old smoke pole. I loaded up 80g of triple 7 under the lightest Power Belt I could find at Cabelas (223g). The recoil was more than my .223 WSSM that she shoots proficiently and it made her very nervous. I demontrated to her the first two shots at 50 yards. They were 1 1/4" apart and she proceded to split the difference with her first shot. The kid knows how to shoot! :shock: Happy with the accuracy we headed out to the woods.

The youth season came and went and we were not aforded any opportunity for shots.

Yesterday the general season opened and we were back at it. She had a few deer run by in the morning but couldnt draw a bead quick enough. In the evening a doe walked in and she lined up the crosshairs, cocked the hammer and ppulled the trigger......puff.... The primer went off but no ignition :evil: The deer got out of there before we could get another primer in. Then this morning 2 does walk 25yds past our stand and stopped several times but no shot...she was now again afraid of the kick. More tears flowed.....she was scared of the gun and disappointed in herself....After a big hug I reasured her everything is OK and I was proud of her whether she got one or not. We will try again next weekend :wink:

A few thoughts on the muzzleloader....
1)It is much heavier than the gun she is used to. So much so that she is unable to point it free hand due to most of the weight being in the barrel. The need for a rest determined many of her shot opportunities
2)The stock is much longer than she is used to. This added greatly to her discomfort.
3)Muzzleloaders are MORE tempormental than many give them credit. I have more appreciation for cartridges now :evil:
4)She really loves a .223 WSSM

 

[SJB358]

Great story buddy. I am hoping she gets a little more shooting time to get comfortable with the muzzle loader. I have heard of good results with 1 pellet of 777 or Pyrodex for shots under 50 yards as well. Recoil has gotta be light and easier for a youth to handle as well. Good luck. Great story. Hope she is able to claim her deer soon.