45-70, 300gr bullets, IMR 4198

[bdbrown66]

We all know that there is little rhyme or reason between the data from one source to another. But assuming that you are loading for a modern lever action, how high have you personally pushed this combo safely? And is that the load that you settled on?

I was testing some loads in my Henry this morning. Using the 300gr Speer, I loaded 3 each at 48.0, 49.0, 50.0, 51.0, and 52.0. Among those, I got a pretty good group at 49.0, velocity about 1760. Then the group opened up as I went on up the ladder, but at 52.0 it started to shrink again, velocity up about 1970-ish. Just wondering if I should try to go on up from there and see how it acts. I'm still well within the load levels from Hodgdon, but their data tends to be much hotter than every other source. I'm above the max from Speer, Nosler, and Hornady. Don't have Sierra's data.

Interested to see what you all have done with this combo.

Cheers,
Brian

 

[Guy Miner]

I don't load the 300 grain jacketed bullets very often, and usually use H 4198.

My older Sierra manual (haven't bought one in a long time) shows the Marlin 1895 max load as 300 gr Sierra with a max of 51.0 grains for 2150 fps.

This is from Hodgdon, using a 300 grain Sierra bullet in their Levergun section:

 

[Guy Miner]

That 57.2 grain load from Hodgdon looks ferocious!

Guy

 

[bdbrown66]

That 57.2 grain load from Hodgdon looks ferocious!

Guy

Yes, and as you can see, the Hodgdon starting load is 2.7gr above the max load from Sierra. It's crazy.

 

[TexasLife]

Speer #15 states on modern levers max is at 43.0 and strong actions at 48.0 with imr4198.

 

[TexasLife]

10x will get you an extra 200fps and benchmark around 350fps over imr4198.

 

[TexasLife]

I have an 1895, but haven't reloaded for it yet. 1680 cover most bullets with good to great velocity from 250-350gr bullets.

 

[RL338]

Speer’s lever data for 300gr

 

[Guy Miner]

Yes, and as you can see, the Hodgdon starting load is 2.7gr above the max load from Sierra. It's crazy.

I think that the difference is because there's quite a debate about just how strong Marlin's 1895 is, and what the pressure limit should be. Some sources like to keep it at 28,000 CUP and lower. Some, like Hodgdon, are comfortable with keeping it under 40,000 CUP.

I've been using Hodgdon's limits for a long time now, in three different Marlin 1895's. None seemed to have any trouble handling the higher pressure loads.

Now my shoulder.... When I used H4198 to approach 2,000 fps with 400 / 405 grain bullets... Yee Haw! Hang onto that rifle and the ibuprofen is in the medicine cabinet....

Guy

 

[bdbrown66]

Guy,

The modern Marlin 1895 is essentially the same as the Marlin 336 action (as is the Henry 45-70). The 336 action is their .30-30 action, which has a limit of 42k PSI. Assuming there is enough material around the barrel threads, there's no reason to believe that the 1895 action won't handle 40k. It's the same action used for the 450 Marlin and the 444, both of which are north of 40k.

 

[TexasLife]

Too bad there's no conversion from cup to psi, unlike F to C is. 40k cup isn't 40k psi. Hornady states 40k cup and Barnes states 42k psi on their loads for max using 1895's. Henry's actions I know nothing about as far as strength goes. Some of it might come down to brass instead of action, but not sure about that.

 

[TexasLife]

Sometimes cup and psi are equal to close on some numbers and sometimes far apart. Maybe cup has a max with their measurements which can be less than saami's psi?

 

[Joec7651]

I deleted my previous post because the 300gr HP charge weight was above certain manuals’ max for lever loads. However that charge is considered a trapdoor level load according to Hodgdon data for IMR4198. I wouldn’t deem it so but that’s where they have it. Figured it best to avoid confusion. Work up to what is safe and accurate for your specific rifle. There’s too much contradictory data not to approach it this way.

As far as IMR and H4198 is concerned, I don’t have anything bad to say about either powder, with pretty much whatever bullet weight you choose. Both work great for me. Stellar powders for 45-70.

As for action strength, my 1895 will handle more pressure than my shoulder. I won’t be loading her very heavy anytime soon. The rifle is much newer than my shoulder. Guess that makes my shoulder an antique and I’ll treat it accordingly. LOL.

Listen to Guy, he is 100% right, 400+ grain bullets in the neighborhood of 2000 fps isn’t a lot of fun to shoot. Very effective, just not fun.

 

[michsteve]

I deleted my previous post because the 300gr HP charge weight was above certain manuals’ max for lever loads. However that charge is considered a trapdoor level load according to Hodgdon data for IMR4198. I wouldn’t deem it so but that’s where they have it. Figured it best to avoid confusion. Work up to what is safe and accurate for your specific rifle. There’s too much contradictory data not to approach it this way.

As far as IMR and H4198 is concerned, I don’t have anything bad to say about either powder, with pretty much whatever bullet weight you choose. Both work great for me. Stellar powders for 45-70.

As for action strength, my 1895 will handle more pressure than my shoulder. I won’t be loading her very heavy anytime soon. The rifle is much newer than my shoulder. Guess that makes my shoulder an antique and I’ll treat it accordingly. LOL.

Listen to Guy, he is 100% right, 400+ grain bullets in the neighborhood of 2000 fps isn’t a lot of fun to shoot. Very effective, just not fun.

I have multiple 45/70s but with my Ruger 1 I can really load hot and with it being a single shot and somewhat light it can have a pretty good wallop.

 

[wvbuckbuster]

I have multiple 45/70s but with my Ruger 1 I can really load hot and with it being a single shot and somewhat light it can have a pretty good wallop.

One of the members of the range I belong to has a Ruger No 1 in 45-70. I watched him shoot it after telling me his load and when he asked if I wanted to shoot it, I told him I'm good, lol. Dan.

 

[salmonchaser]

I haven't loaded much for my 1895 either. Loaded 100: 400 gr Barnes Busters about 10 years ago for my guide rifle in Alaska. Never killed a bear with it, killed a bunch of porcupines.
Literally, a max load of RL7 caused most of my guests who asked to shoot it say bad bad words.

 

[Joec7651]

I haven't loaded much for my 1895 either. Loaded 100: 400 gr Barnes Busters about 10 years ago for my guide rifle in Alaska. Never killed a bear with it, killed a bunch of porcupines.
Literally, a max load of RL7 caused most of my guests who asked to shoot it say bad bad words.

You’ll have that on those big jobs.

 

[grry10]

I can't comment on 4198 since I am another user of RL-7 with 300 gr bullets. Because I have 45-70s in both a Uberti High Wall and a Marlin 1895 I'm loading down to the High Wall level to avoid any possible ammo mix-up or problem. I've thought about loading up for the 1895 using a different weight bullet but have not went that far yet. The 300s are plenty for whitetail deer.

 

[Charlie-NY]

IMO there are 3 reasons that book loads vary so much:

1. 45-70 brass varies in case capacity quite a bit depending on the manufacturer
2. Barrel length makes a big difference in velocity output
3. Pressure thresholds vary depending on which lawyer is overseeing the data - personally, I think about 40,000 psi is a good max for an 1895 but data is provided for up to 43,000 psi in places. Some data is developed to remain below 40,000 psi, or less.

FWIW - An 1895 in 450 Marlin can withstand more pressure than one in 45-70. Sacrifices were made to the Marlin in an effort to fit the fat case and excessively wide rim into the platform.

One of my favorite "whitetail" loads uses a 300gr Barnes TSX bullet and H4198 @ 2,000 fps (Marlin 1895SBL). While I'm sure that the bullet can be fired faster, this load is comfortable to shoot, fairly flat for a 45-70, and drops whitetails quickly.

 

[JD338]

I've never used IMR4198. I've been using H322 with excellent speed and accuracy. I have pushed 300 gr bullets at 2300 fps from the 1895 Guide gun but settled on 2200 fps and consistent sub MOA accuracy. I did add a Pachmayr Decelerator recoil pad and it really tamed the beast.