A future project- .264 Magnum

[filmjunkie4ever]

So gents, hearing Winchester is again chambering their Model 70 (makes me tear up just saying those two words together) for the 264 Win Mag makes me re-evaluate a project.

So knowing you all for the good advice you are...

1) I could buy a new Model 70 in 264 Win Mag, end of story...

or

2) I have a Remington 700 ADL in 270 WCF that I have been toying with the idea of re-chambering to 270 Roy or rebarreling to 264 Win Mag...

So, whatta you fellas think?

 

[DrMike]

Is there a reason you can't do both, perhaps delaying gratification for one or the other until you have completed the first? I'm certainly not biased (much), but my personal choice would be to go with a new Model 70 Winchester in 264 Win.

 

[FOTIS]

Your choice buddy.
My 270 Bee does 140 grain accubonds at 3300 fps. A 264 win can never do that unless you get a 30" tube or something. Also the 270 Bee will do 3250 with a 150 grain Nosler Partition. That separates the 2 big time in my opinion.

Now the 264.... a classic sweet little thing which I love.

 

[cloverleaf]

Yes....but a 264 Winchester Model 70. Thats like a coffee table book for Gun Nuts. Hnag it over the fireplace....and do both. CL

 

[FOTIS]

Hence the word classic accentuated in my post. :mrgreen:

 

[mcseal2]

I love my M70 classic re-barrelled to 264WM and the performance of the 140gr accubonds. Before they came out with the 140gr AccuBond with it's high BC for the 270's I'd feel that the 264 had a little more advantage. Now that the 270 has a great long range windy day bullet things change. The 264 has less recoil and cheaper brass though, it would still get my vote. I'd likely go the custom route and get it set up just how you want.

 

[Elkman]

If dollars are a consideration the 270 R, as FOTIS says, packs a lot more punch.

Nothing wrong with a good shooting 700!

 

[SJB358]

I say go 264. I have the M70 Classic Sporter. I like the 264 as it is a great shooter, although a little touchy to load for it seems. Long, high BC and SD'ed bullets, light recoil and pretty accurate once you get em figured out. With Winchester chambering them again, I hope they take off. Pretty capable cartridge and they hold up well as ranges get longer.

 

[Guest]

Practically speaking, you're going to enjoy either one.

Now, with practicality out of the way, I'll tell you what I think. (Scotty is going to dislike this, I'm afraid...)

I'm with Fotis on this one - the 270'bee is just about the very best, flattest shooting, hardest hitting round you can get for hunting non-dangerous game. It's just about the best match of case capacity to bore diameter out there, and it's got the velocity numbers to back that up. Add to that the very reasonable recoil from any load I've tried - in line with 30-06 recoil - and you have a highly manageable package that is capable of everything from yotes to elk, if you want to do it all with one rifle. (Where, however, is the fun in that?) I can speak from experience, that once you shoot a 270Wby a bit, it will win your heart and fast become your favorite rifle. I know mine is!

Of course, the very best option is to do both if funds allow. Otherwise, just build the 'bee (or chase down a nice, used Mark V for a good price) and you'll be more than satisfied.

 

[Songdog]

I'm with Fotis on this one - the 270'bee is just about the very best, flattest shooting, hardest hitting round you can get for hunting non-dangerous game. It's just about the best match of case capacity to bore diameter out there, and it's got the velocity numbers to back that up. Add to that the very reasonable recoil from any load I've tried - in line with 30-06 recoil - and you have a highly manageable package that is capable of everything from yotes to elk, if you want to do it all with one rifle. (Where, however, is the fun in that?) I can speak from experience, that once you shoot a 270Wby a bit, it will win your heart and fast become your favorite rifle. I know mine is!

Ummmm... I think the 7mm Rem has something to say about that. Faster, better bullet selection, and all sorts of cheap brass... not to mention every rifle known to man is chambered in this cartridge....

Why anyone would ever shoot a .277 caliber anything is beyond me. In fact, I saw an Animal Planet special on evolution just last night. Apparently, all monkeys and smaller members of the apes have now switched from .277 diam. poo... and .308 diam. poo... and gone to flinging solely .284 diam. poo do to the superior ballistic qualities... the larger apes will continue to fling the much larger and ballistically superior .50 diam. poo...

Tell you what... just for giggles... pick any load for the .264 winny... and the .270 Roy... then run them against these numbers: 2950fps/162 grain bullet/.625 BC.... see how they compare.

 

[filmjunkie4ever]

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Don't really want a 7mm Rem Mag as I have a 30-06 and a 300 WSM and they will both hit just as hard and fly just as flat (depending on the load) at any practical distances I am going to shoot. These are hunting rifles I am interested in building and call me crazy but I still enjoy getting up closer than a mile and a half when I shoot at them. Not to diss anyone who enjoys long-range shooting. I enjoy it on targets but would rather get closer if its an animal I am shooting at.

The tube on my M700 is the standard 22" so a new barrel for either caliber would be in order.

The Bee is more versatile for sure but again, I have no need of shooting a bullet of heavier than 130-140 grains for what I intend to use this rifle for.

Dr. Mike, I like you dote on a M70. Seems like I may just have to save up my pennies and get a new Model 70.

 

[SJB358]

One good point that SongDog brings up is brass. There is a ton of good brass for the 7mm RM, that can pull double duty for the 264 without the need to fireform.. I don't claim to use my 264 for much heavier game than deer, I have others for that, so being smaller than a 270 or 7mm is okay with me. Plus, it is just a cool customer and a little odd.. Keeps me coming back.

 

[Guest]

Songdog, I like the 7mmRemMag. I will own another one, likely soon. I already have the scope for it. But if you compare "equal weight for caliber" bullets, you're going to compare things like the 130gr .277 and the 140gr .284. The 130 in the 270Wby is going to run 3400-3500fps. I know, because I've shot a ton of these. There's not a single 140gr load in the 7mmRemMag that approaches this (in a 26" barrel). The reality is, you're going to see something like 200fps slower, at least, from the 7mmRemMag.

Now, using your example of the 162gr with a ULD bullet with very high BC, let's take a look at the numbers (despite the fact that a 162gr bullet with a .625BC is going to be questionable for any close range hits with a 7mmRemMag, I suspect). With your load, zeroed at 200yds, through JBM Ballistics' calculator, we're going to see drops as follows:

250 - 1moa
300 - 2moa
400 - 4.4moa
500 - 7moa
600 - 9.8moa
700 - 12.9moa
800 - 16.3moa
900 - 20moa
1000 - 24moa

Using realistic velocities from my 270Wby with a 150gr Berger Match Hunting VLD running along at 3200fps mv (I've safely achieved 3250+ with other 150gr bullets), zeroed at 200yds, the drops are:


250 - .8moa
300 - 1.7moa
400 - 3.8moa
500 - 6.0moa
600 - 8.6moa
700 - 11.3moa
800 - 14.4moa
900 - 17.9moa
1000 - 21.7moa

Now, that's the best I can do, in as much as I don't know what bullet you're actually using, but those values are using your numbers, plugging them into the very same equations, using the same assumptions. And the 270Wby, with a 150gr Berger Match Hunting VLD, is running almost 2.5MOA flatter at 1000yds.

I may have to pick up a box of those 150's just to see what I can do with them. I currently use 130gr E-Tips in mine, and for the record, with those, the 1000yd drop is only 21.1moa using a 200yd zero. If I run that out to a maximum point blank range zero of about 270yds (and set to hit 2" high at 100yds) I'm looking at only 20.1moa drop at 1000yds. That's a full four minutes flatter, even. Using a dinky little 130gr hunting bullet. I'm going to have to try that out at long range for sure to see what the drops really are.

I welcome discussion on this, but since I normally don't shoot past 500yds (nowhere to practice further than that for many years) I've not yet gotten into the longer ranges. I'm sure wind will play heck with my 130gr bullet at 1000, but I'm going to see if I can find a calm day and try it out...

The bottom line is, I stand by my statements earlier. And I can tell you that those who discount the .277cal as not having good ballistics just aren't aware of what the 'bee will do. Even the WSM and Win variants are not too shabby. Are there fewer bullets than for the .264/.284crowd? Sure. But there are good bullets and you can shoot very flat with the 'bee.

 

[Guest]

One good point that SongDog brings up is brass.

That's just about the only drawback to the 'bee. Brass ain't cheap. On the other hand, what brass you can buy is very high quality, lends itself to stellar accuracy, and seems to be lasting well enough for me so far. I haven't run through my first hundred rounds of brass, in several hundred shots through my 'bee.

 

[SJB358]

Songdog, I like the 7mmRemMag. I will own another one, likely soon. I already have the scope for it. But if you compare "equal weight for caliber" bullets, you're going to compare things like the 130gr .277 and the 140gr .284. The 130 in the 270Wby is going to run 3400-3500fps. I know, because I've shot a ton of these. There's not a single 140gr load in the 7mmRemMag that approaches this (in a 26" barrel). The reality is, you're going to see something like 200fps slower, at least, from the 7mmRemMag.

Now, using your example of the 162gr with a ULD bullet with very high BC, let's take a look at the numbers (despite the fact that a 162gr bullet with a .625BC is going to be questionable for any close range hits with a 7mmRemMag, I suspect). With your load, zeroed at 200yds, through JBM Ballistics' calculator, we're going to see drops as follows:

250 - 1moa
300 - 2moa
400 - 4.4moa
500 - 7moa
600 - 9.8moa
700 - 12.9moa
800 - 16.3moa
900 - 20moa
1000 - 24moa

Using realistic velocities from my 270Wby with a 150gr Berger Match Hunting VLD running along at 3200fps mv (I've safely achieved 3250+ with other 150gr bullets), zeroed at 200yds, the drops are:


250 - .8moa
300 - 1.7moa
400 - 3.8moa
500 - 6.0moa
600 - 8.6moa
700 - 11.3moa
800 - 14.4moa
900 - 17.9moa
1000 - 21.7moa

Now, that's the best I can do, in as much as I don't know what bullet you're actually using, but those values are using your numbers, plugging them into the very same equations, using the same assumptions. And the 270Wby, with a 150gr Berger Match Hunting VLD, is running almost 2.5MOA flatter at 1000yds.

I may have to pick up a box of those 150's just to see what I can do with them. I currently use 130gr E-Tips in mine, and for the record, with those, the 1000yd drop is only 21.1moa using a 200yd zero. If I run that out to a maximum point blank range zero of about 270yds (and set to hit 2" high at 100yds) I'm looking at only 20.1moa drop at 1000yds. That's a full four minutes flatter, even. Using a dinky little 130gr hunting bullet. I'm going to have to try that out at long range for sure to see what the drops really are.

I welcome discussion on this, but since I normally don't shoot past 500yds (nowhere to practice further than that for many years) I've not yet gotten into the longer ranges. I'm sure wind will play heck with my 130gr bullet at 1000, but I'm going to see if I can find a calm day and try it out...

The bottom line is, I stand by my statements earlier. And I can tell you that those who discount the .277cal as not having good ballistics just aren't aware of what the 'bee will do. Even the WSM and Win variants are not too shabby. Are there fewer bullets than for the .264/.284crowd? Sure. But there are good bullets and you can shoot very flat with the 'bee.

I will give SD some credit, as running 2950 with a 160 bullet is very easy. It is actually a rather mild load for the 7RM.. Most of the decent 160's can be ran up into the 3100 range pretty easily which, might not be a huge jump, but that would be a little closer, running pressure vs pressure. Not dissing either one, but I have 0 issues running the 7WSM with 160 AB's to 3125. I would imagine 140's would go into the 3250-3300 realm pretty easily. That is imaginative as I haven't ran anything that light in mine yet. I like them both, but the 7RM is a war horse that has stood the test of time, and the 270WBY is another that has really stood out for Weatherby for a long time as well. I think the case capacities have to be within a few grains of one another anyhow. Other than the Venturi style shoulder and nice long neck, they are virtually the same case right?

Again, back to the OP FJ.. Get the M70 264!

 

[BK]

This is just me talking, but I wouldn't mess with going from an '06 based case to a belted mag case. In this instance, I might think about a 6.5-06, maybe AI'd, or a .280/.280 AI. Or dumping the current action and getting an SPS in a belted mag. But I know I'm pretty uptight about stuff like this.

 

[filmjunkie4ever]

Yeah Kurt I have pretty much decided, especially after a visit with the gunsmith, that I plan to just buy one of the new Model 70's instead of build one. Its cheaper that way and will probably look better. Will keep the 270 as a 270. Its a good mountain rifle as it is shooting the 130gr NBTs at 3100 ish. My Uncle has an old Push-feed Model 70 that belonged to my grandfather in 264 that he may be willing to part with. Not sure if it has a 26, 24 or 22" tube.

To my mind the 264 is a much better flat land antelope and deer cartridge. The rifle as it is weighs just shy of 8 pounds from Winchester. Not exactly a lightweight. I think it will weigh more than my 30-06 scoped and loaded. But thats okay...its for long-range shooting more than it is carrying around.

I have all of these guns but I still keep grabbing that old 30-06 everytime I go for deer and the 300 WSM for elk. If I am feeling adventurous or nostalgic I will grab one of the old 99 Savage rifles. Have had that 270 for quite a spell now and I still havent shot anything besides coyotes with it. I need more guns like another hole in my head but wheres the fun in that right?

 

[IdahoCTD]

You can always do a .270-300wm and use a Redding .300wm bushing die to reload it. It's every bit as fast as the .270 Weatherby. 300wm cases are cheaper unless you buy RWS which is tough as hell. If you want to use the .270 to build it you can place a ad for a bolt swap (standard bolt face for a magnum) on the 6mmbr.com shooting forum and most likely someone would swap you. Then all you would need is a magnum follower and your good to go for the action. I have a bunch of 700 followers and mag boxes from guns I've converted to single shot if you need one. Throw a new barrel on it and away you go.

 

[Songdog]

Here's what I'm saying... and it breaks my heart to do so... because I'm a huge .25 and 6.5mm fan... but: If I'm going bigger than a 6mm... I'm going all the way to the 7mm Rem... because that's where you have to go to get what I would consider a "considerable advantage" over the 6's. I know... I know... but it is what it is... and the numbers don't lie.

I shot a load for 3+ years in the 7mm Rem that ran 120 NBTs at 3625 out of a 24" factory spout... and I shot the same 50 brass for many boxes of 120's... and I too have seen the 162 Amax at 3100+ out of several factory rifles in 7mm Rem. I also find it funny that one would question the integrity of one bullet at reasonable speed (162@2950)... then compare it to another of equally questionable on-game performance at a greater velocity (150@3250)? Furthermore... anything the .270 Roy can do with a 150, the 7mm Rem can do with a 160/162 of equal build type (spt, sbt, vld, etc.). Anyhoo.... no matter what brush you paint it with... the 7mm Rem is the King of the Sub-.30's (and I would argue that you have to go all the way to the .300 RUM to gain a lick over the big 7's of any ilk).

I like the .264 Winny... it's a "cool" round that every rifle crank should own at some point (and it spanks the seemingly more popular .257 Roy).... but that certainly don't make it better than it's big brother the 7mm Rem. The .270 Roy is "rifle Americana"... and no doubt beats on it's little brother (the WCF version) something fierce.... but it sucks hind teet to the 7mm Rem in both component availability/cost and on-game performance... a lose/lose from where I'm sitting.

 

[Guest]

SD, you and I will just have to disagree on this. I'll concede that the 7mmRemMag has more readily available brass. Beyond that, I won't concede much else.

I mentioned the Berger (which I don't shoot at paper or game) as it seemed the most likely comparison to the 162gr high BC bullet you referenced. I also said I did not shoot them, and have not shot them. I pointed out my use of the 130gr E-Tip on game. In reality, the E-Tip is stellar on game, and flatter than any 7mmRemMag load of comparable bullet weight for caliber, or anything heavier. And, looking at energy figures, the 7mmRemMag cannot outperform the 270Wby on game, considering near equal weight bullets and similar energy numbers (within 50-100lbs at all distances out to 1000yds). It's just not possible, no matter how much you like the RemMag.

Now, again, I like the 7mmRemMag. I will own another one. Already have the one I want "picked out" in my head. And, yes, I'll make it a 160gr, high BC machine when I get it. But it won't be as flat as my 270Wby. Nothing wrong with it being your choice, either. We just disagree.