Accubond: Troubling performance

[hardpan]

Hi everyone,
As most of you may know, I have been a huge supporter of accubonds on this forum. But, I have had 2 recent incidents that are troubling.
1) I was guiding a blackbuck hunt and my hunter was using a .257 WBY mag. He shot at about 75 yards into the BB's neck. The bullet killed the BB instantly, but the ENTRY wound was around 2 inches in diameter. The taxidermist has his work cut out for him on this kill. Most of the time, an AB enters with a .25 hole, and exits with about a 1 inch hole. A 2 inch entry is not good at all. My concern is that if we had been hunting tougher game, the bullet may not have killed at all. I expect that kind of performance from a BT.
2) A hunter that I load for shot a large (320+) Russian boar with a 7mm wby mag. It was loaded at 3100 fps using a 160 gr AB. The bullet again opened up about 2" + in diameter. The second shot brought the boar down. But, the first shot should have penetrated. That hunter is requesting that I switch back to partitions.

Most of my AB kills have been really good performance. A small entry, a large damage channel, and a 1 inch or so exit. Been that way for hogs, elk, deer, even a coon. But, the last batch of ABs for both my 7mm and .257 were not satisfactory. In both cases, the bullet did not perform to expectation and opened up too much and too quickly. In neither case was bone hit on the entry. And in both cases, the taxidermist has a lot of work to do.

Any comments?
Hardpan,
BTW, the .257 velocity at the muzzle is about 3400 fps. And the elk cow that I neck shot with my 7mm, had perfect performance. a small entry, and a 3/4 inch exit with a neck shot at fairly short range from my 7mm wby mag (160 gr AB at 3100 fps)

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I dont think theres much problem the way I see things.

First, that .257" bullet hit at 3200fps which is hauling butt, a 2" entry is simply what your gonna see with that kinda impact MV. The animal was DRT, whats to complain about???

Second, although never have hunted boars, theyre very tough thick skinned/muscled/boned, correct? Again, if you had a 2" entry I suspect the impact MV was rather high, the bullet shed half its weight, thats why there was lack of penetration. A 2nd shot brought him down for good, a lot of tough animals require more then 1 shot to anchor, again I dont see the big problem here...

The AB is not a 90% weight retention bullet as you and everyone else around here knows, so you cant expect it to act like one at these type of close ranges and high impact velcoties. You take any jacketed bullet that loses 40-50% of its weight, and have an impact velocity above 3K and your gonna get some bigger entry holes and lack of penetration at times.

If you want gaurunteed penetration, then yes, go back to the partitions or even something with more weight retention.

Just my opinion anyways.

 

[DrMike]

Physics ensures that no one bullet can do it all. Performance demands vary, and we choose our bullet on the basis of what we anticipate on a given hunt. As we push bullets to ever higher velocities, we demand that they perform as cup and core bullets do at velocities under 3000 fps. Such expectations are unrealistic. With the higher velocity cartridges, I still lean toward the monolithic bullets simply because we can't control the impact velocity since we don't know the distance at which game will appear. With the 257 Wby, I would tend toward a tougher bullet, even giving consideration to the E-Tip. The 7 mm Wby is somewhat more problematic as I would have assumed that the 160 would be about ideal. A boar does impose a tough demand on any bullet, but the AB should be up to the task. Though Nosler does state that performance impact velocity is unlimited, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to reassess that data. I tend to be more conservative in my own choice and hold myself to estimated impact velocities of less than 3100 fps, which should have held in the instance your describe. A call to Nosler might well be in line to discuss your observation with the techs and to offer them opportunity to review a sample of the bullets involved.

 

[jmad_81]

Well I'm a big fan of the AB as well, but do think they have their limitations. I agree with Dr. Mike on the 160 AB and would have thought that there would have been no problem there. But when you get into the 257 Weatherby, I can see a problem. 3400 is really fast for a hunting bullet, and a .257 cal bullet is not very big. In my line of thinking, it would be harder to make a tough small bullet because you have less space inside the bullet to make things thougher (thicker?). Much like the older BT bullets, the .338 BT had a pretty thick jacket, while the smaller BTs were thinner. I would suggest going with a monolithic bullet in the 257 Bee. They are very tough and can handle those speeds.

 

[mcseal2]

My neighbor shoots a 257 bee and I load the 110 AccuBond for him. The loads his gun likes shoot the 110 at 3450fps MV. He shot a nice 9pt buck at 120yds last week and took it through both shoulders, the bullet performed perfectly. It had a moderate entrance wound, broke both shoulders, and exited the far side. He ruined a lot of meat, but he wants the deer to drop when he hits them and not move a bit. I shot my buck last night with the 130gr AccuBond from my 270 win loaded to 3175fps. I shot him quartering away at 348yds, broke the last rib, hit both lungs, and broke the off-side shoulder. That bullet didn't exit but made a perfect mushroom. I agree with the others about the AccuBond not being designed to retain 85-90% of it's weight, but that is why I like them. They open fast to deliver more shock than a interbond or scirocco design. I've had them penetrate less than I thought they should on occasion but when I recover them they have a perfect mushroom and 55-75% of their initial weight. I can't fault them for that, so they remain my favorite game bullet.

 

[6mm Remington]

hardpan,
These are just my thoughts on this. From what I have seen in a couple Accubonds through my buddies 6x6 bull, they performed superbly, mushroomed well, and penetrated very well. As many of us have shot or been around when a lot of different animals have been shot, we all have seen some things that amaze, even when the same type of animal, bullet, distance, and everything is similar.
You talk about roughly a 2" hole in the hide on the entry side. I'm not sure that was a bullet failure, but could have other factors that might have contributed to it, one of which is the high velocity. I think it's quite possible for even a "tougher" bullet hitting that mass of hide and flesh which contains a high water moisture content, and couple that with the velocity and shock, and I believe the animals hide can split and tear. This can happen at longer ranges as well.

My longest shot ever on a big-game animal was a solid 500-525 yards on an antelope buck feeding contently with another smaller buck. There was NO wind ( :shock to contend with, I had all the time in the world, and I was prone with excellent support. I was shooting my 30-06 loaded with 165 gr. Nosler solid-base boattails (that's before BT). I hit this buck perfectly behind his shoulder right in the lungs. The bullet was obviously not smoking along like it was on a close shot, but the hole in the entry side of that buck was amazing. The bullet must have hit a rib perfectly going in, and the rib exploded. That in turn took out a couple more ribs next to the one hit. The bullet mushroomed nicely and exited the off-side as evidenced by the exit hole. The description of the hole on the entry is graphic. There was a horizontal rectangle in the entry side that was about 5 inches long and about 3 inches from top to bottom. There was no rib, skin, flesh, or anything else, just a large hole! Now explain why or how that could possibly happen, but everything including the moon and stars must have lined up that it just did! Sometimes just like on your shots, the hide tears and funny things can happen? :?:

 

[SJB358]

Same here, I think the 257WBY is pretty tough on bullets. Especially a 110 at 3400+ at under a 100 yards. I kind of suspected that before I even read through it. The 160AB performance sounds like an anomoly to me? It is a pretty tough bullet, and not really pushed outside of any real parameters. I think the PT or ETip's or any of the other mono bullets are a little better for the 257's blistering speeds. I have put a 140gr AB into an elks neck at 45-50 yards from my 270WSM at nearly 3300 and it did okay. It was messy but it still worked. I think those two animals were kind of the exception, not the rule to normal AB performance. When going small caliber like that, with a chance for heavier game, I just always step up to PT and realize it will work. The AB's don't have anything to keep them from stopping expansion and will continue to do so. Hence the PT for tougher game. Don't know, just my thinking on it. I wouldn't think twice about using the AB in the big 7's, but the 257WBY is pretty stressful on non PT'ed or mono bullets and even then, I would expect just about everything to shear after shortly after impact. Scotty

 

[hardpan]

Hey guys,
I understand what you are saying. I have used ABs for a few years in my .257, never had a problem with the bullet expanding that much on impact. I can go to the PTs, but my guns shoot the ABs at least twice as accurately. And, there is nothing tough about a black buck. I had thought however, that the AB was a tougher bullet than the PT, as I thought that it was bonded and should retain 60-70%% of overall mass. I was really surprised by the AB on the hog. this is from Nosler's description of the bullet... "Nosler’s proprietary bonding process eliminates all possibility of component separation resulting in 60-70% weight retention." They also post that the velocity is unlimited so 3200 fps should not be a problem as it is not that hot.


I have shot a lot of hogs, with PTs and ABs, and again I thought that the AB was a tougher bullet than the PT as it was bonded. But, 3 times this year, it basically acted like a ballistic tip. And I don't shoot BTs on anything other than deer and antelope.

Most of the replies seem to take the Nosler claim with a grain of salt. I was hoping that Nosler's claims were accurate and not hyped. I will also take your advice and give them a call on Monday to see what nosler has to say.
thanks;.
Hardpan

 

[1Shot]

It sounds like you should be shooting a solid FMJ if you want little entrance holes and have an exit. Even with a solid FMJ pushing a 110 gr 3400 fps and shooting live tissue where it is still going 3200 to 3300 fps the hydrostatic effect will blow tissue outward through the entrance hole and make it bigger. I will never understand the magnum shooters that want screaming velocity and then complain when they shoot game up close, which most big game is taken inside 100 yards, and the bullets explode or even if they hold together like the AB usually does or do not exit but are found close to the other side of the game animal. Slow those bullets down and they will work like their supposed to. Myself I have been shooting 130 AB's out of a 264 Win mag at 3350 fps and have shot 5 deer and only recovered one bullet all others were exits through the shoulders. The one I recovered was from a buck that was facing me and I placed the bullet on the front edge of his left shoulder and when cutting up the meat I found it in his right ham. Perfect textbook mushroom and weight was 87 grs. Impact velocity at 111 yards had to still be close to 3200 fps.

 

[DrMike]

hardpan,

I really don't take the Nosler claims at face value. I have tested AccuBonds in a variety of situations (black bear, mule deer, whitetail, elk, moose and bison at ranges from 30 to 300 yards). AccuBonds are not necessarily tougher than a Partition; but they are nevertheless a fine bullet, as you know. I have not witnessed what you describe, but then the rifles from which I launch the ABs have muzzle velocities of less than 3100 fps. My practise is that with rifles/loads with muzzle velocities exceeding 3100 fps, generally to opt for one of the monolithic bullets on the market. I can speak with some limited authority that the E-Tip when striking a moose at a velocity approximately 3300 fps does not create what I consider to be an excessive surface wound. The bullet does create a deep wound channel, however, creating extensive disruption of internal tissues. It just seems that with the 257 Wby, the E-Tip might be worth considering. Again, I cannot help but believe that you had an anomaly with the 160 grain AB from the 7mm Wby. That is out of character for what I have witnessed.

When AccuBonds were first available, a number of people claimed that the bullets "penciled through" deer size game. I cannot tell you the number of posts in several forums \claiming that deer ran away as though nothing had happened when they were shot. In my experience, it is not unusual for deer to run when shot, and I have recovered whitetails that managed to put forty yards under them before their legs gave out. And these were with perfectly placed shots! In short, I have not witnessed the failures that were claimed in these instances, either. I can say, that in numerous instances, the AB has performed acceptably on game. And, of course, the accuracy with these bullets is second to none.

I think it will be instructive for all of us when you are able to speak with the techs at Nosler. Hopefully, you will share what they say. I know that I'll be interested in what you find out. Fortunately, in the interim, you do have a fine option in the Partition.

 

[Songdog]

I think the AccuBond acts a lot more like a Ballistic Tip, than it does like a Partition. In fact... I think there's a lot of times (read 'soft tissue') when the AccuBond penetrates LESS than a Ballistic Tip. Here's why: Because it's bonded, the AccuBond tends to end up a much larger and "rounder" mushroom than a bullet that sheds some lead... it almost becomes a big wad of bubblegum. The BT jacket tends to fold back tighter against the shank as the lead core is stripped away, this leaves the overall diameter of the mushroom not only smaller (meaning higher sectional density)... but creates a "sharper" mushroom. I've killed piles of stuff with the NBT... never ever had an issue. My thinking is... treat the AccuBond like you would treat a NBT... and stuff will die post haste. Ask it to do what a Partition can do (or a TSX, E-Tip, etc)... and you'll eventually be disappointed.

 

[SJB358]

SongDog, I have never thought of it like that, but alot of folks, and quite a few on here have mentioned they had excellent luck with the 115gr BT on elk, bear and deer. There has to be something to it all! But, yeah, I tend to agree with your thinking, and stick with the PT most of the time. Just seems to really expand like crazy and still penetrate like a drill. Scotty

 

[Greg Nolan]

I shoot and have killed with both these exact loads. The 257 Wby at 75 yards is still going 3300 fps or so. It will violently upset and make a big hole. So will the Partition which is designed to open up at 257 Roberts velocities. The rear portion of the Partition will penetrate but penetration isn't the issue in this case. I finished off my antelope at about 50 yards with a head shot :shock: A 120 gr Partition or better yet a e-tip or tsx would be better if close shots are a possibility.
On the 7 RUM with the 160 A/B again your 3300 fps or so and if you hit the armor on the shoulder the AccuBond will parachute at that velocity. A hit behind the armor will kill handily. I shot a hog with the 180 Partition out of my 300 Wby and it penetrated the armor but made a mess at entrance because the armor deflected all the forward portion of the bullet. I started using TSX bullets for hogs because I have to and found that they are superior in all cases. They don't blow up too much but do expand enough and they will penetrate. The e-tip can only be better but they didn't make them in 325 WSM at that time.
The AccuBond does shed lead as it goes and it does it in a far more linear fashon than the Partition which opens violently at high velocity and depends on the rear shank to penetrate. I think the A/B is excellent but it has it's limitations. If you want a lead core bullet which won't fail (EVER) the Swift A Frame is the answer. They work with boring certainty but they cost about $65 a box of 50 and the BC and accuracy isn't as good as the e-tip and TSX.
My opinion based on my experiences.
Greg

 

[Powerstroke]

My $0.02 - and this is only my opinion - don't take this wrong what so ever.

Once that bullet leaves the barrel, I've always said, none of us know what's going to happen. All we can do is stack
the odds in our favor and use the best bullet we can from a lot of reasearch and field testing. I have yet to use a Partition
on anything, but only hunted Mulies & Elk.

Although I don't subscribe 100% to the bonded bullet / weight retention theory, I've seen great results with the AB's and will continue using them in some calibers.
My only question ? :grin: If you had plans on mounting the BB, why did you shoot him in the neck ? :wink:


With that said, here is a 115gr B-tip out of my .257 Wby. My wife shot a cow elk this year - high shoulder shot @ just slightly over 400yds. I didn't expect anything to be left of the bullet, let a lone find it on the hide on the opposite shoulder.
61 and some change left if I remember correctly.

 

[JD338]

It all depends on what the bullet hits and the impact velocity.
I shot a buck a few years ago with a 7mm 160 gr AB at 3000 fps and hit him right on the low shoulder leg bone at about 40 yds. The enterance wound was quite large due to the bullet hitting big bone squarely and creating blow back from the leg bone, sending tissue and bone fragments back towards me! This is the only time I have ever seen this happen.
Enterance wound-

Exit wound-

JD338

 

[SJB358]

Holy Smokes Jim, it looks like you hit him with a HEDP (High Explosive Dual Purpose) 40mm grenade! That is a nasty looking entrance wound. Scotty

 

[DrMike]

That is quite a blowout, Jim. I'm not surprised, however. That velocity impacting hard tissue ... something has to give, and the soft tissue overlying the bone is going to yield to the shock wave.

 

[Anonymous]

I shot two caribou this year with 180gr ABs from my .300WSM @2950fps. Range was about 200yds and bullet performance was perfect. Big gaping 3" exit holes and the bullets are still flying across the tundra for all I know. Didn't find any fragments in the wound channel or the exit wound.

Increase that velocity by 400+fps and decrease the range by more than half and I'd expect a mess.

 

[SJB358]

Hodgeman brings up a great point. If you can keep your speeds in the 3000-3100 range I think bullet performance is always going to be pretty decent. Even with super premiums to an extent. That was one of my thoughts on why to stick with the 25-06 rather than the 257. It is just a touch less stressful to bullets and I am not required to load premiums to know I am going to get standard bullet performance. Just my thoughts on it and why I shoot heavier bullets in the faster cartridges. I figure they have plenty of speed at over 3K and they will hit harder and penetrate further, more times than not. Scotty

 

[Guy Miner]

Jim, that poor little buck sitting there with a hole in his shoulder, tounge hanging out, and a "what happened" look on his face brought a grin to my face. Not his, but mine.

Hit stuff with bullets, things happen. Sometimes what we expect, sometimes not. Powerstroke mentioned stacking the odds by using good bullets - I like that train of thought.

Regards, Guy