Accuracy vs. Bullet Performance on Elk

[Rem 700]

I went to the range today to work on my set up shooting a 30.06 Remington 700. Last winter I worked up my load of IMR 4831 to 57 grains for both my 180gr BT and 165gr AB. This load gave me the best patterns for both. However, while shooting today my BT gave me a 1" group and my AB only a 3". I was wanting to shoot the 165 AB for elk this fall, but my groups accuracy is much better with the 180 BT's. Would you recommend sticking with the AB's for the better bullet performance on larger game, or would you recommend the BT's for accuracy?
Thanks.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

It doesn't matter how good a bullet is if you can't hit anything with it.
Between those two, I'd shoot the BT, and maybe try the Partition.

 

[rick smith]

If that is the only powder you tried with the 165ABs I would recommend you try IMR-4350. I use 58.5-58.8grs of IMR-4350 with a variety of 165gr bullets in several different 30/06s. This past fall four of us went to Montana for an Elk/Mule Deer hunt. We all used 30/06s, three were shooting 165gr NP and one was using the 165grAB. We all killed Elk and Mule Deer without a problem. Ranges were from 75-350yds, lasered.Rick.

 

[DrMike]

A few thoughts occur to me. First, you may have witnessed the extreme of your group size today. In other words, the 165 AB may be shooting 3 inch groups, though you have a smaller group last winter. That would be an example of statistics at work where small sample size can yield aberrations. Really, a minimum of ten shots would give you a more realistic group size, or better still, three sets of groups consisting of five shots each and taking the mean as your average group size.

Again, if you developed the loads during the winter, it is possible that you are now seeing a pressure differential resulting from the higher temperature. IMR4831 is not particularly temperature sensitive, but temperature will introduce significant variations. Velocity measurements should reveal if this is what is happening.

Yet again, you might wish to play with seating depth and/or fine tune the charge to get a higher degree of accuracy out f the bullet. If you loaded to SAAMI standards and/or limited OAL to magazine depth, perhaps there are other OALs that would yield better accuracy for you.

My personal preference would be to use the ABs rather than the BTs. You likely have a higher velocity, which allows for a slightly longer minimum point blank range, and it is a tougher bullet that will hold together on elk. These are tough animals with tough bones that you want to punch through.

There is the point, however, that if you confine your shots to 200 yards, and you have a genuine 3 inch group, it is more than adequate to take elk. The chest is sufficiently deep that a six-inch group at 200 yards will still be in the kill zone if you aim at the centre of the chest.

This raises a final point that occurs to me, does your bullet "go to sleep" beyond 100 yards. One load that I use in my 7 mm RM employs 175 grain Partitions. At 100 yards, I consistently get a 1.5 inch group. At 200 yards, the group size is consistently one inch. There is clearly some yaw in the bullet that settles down after a period. I know that the load works very well.

 

[Rem 700]

Thanks...I was considering the H 4350 for my next powder purchase. But here is another thought. I know that there is a concern with the BT as close range (because of high velocities and bullet breaking apart). By velocity is around 2750, so I am not too concerned about the BT at close range falling apart. I guess I am hearing that the AB will improve chances of punching through hard bone compared to the BT's. However, I was thinking the same thing with the 3"groups - "This will kill an elk at accurately at 250 yards", but of course I hate looking at the 3" group on paper.

 

[bullet]

The BT at those velocities will more than do the job and you will not have to worry about bullet failure.

 

[Guy Miner]

The accuracy nut in me truly dislikes those 3" groups, particularly since you may be offered a 300 yard shot at a good elk... I'd hate to count on that level of accuracy when a much more accurate load was available...

Fully understand the problem - back in '01 when I went after big bull elk w/my 7mm Rem mag, I had a great shooting load with the 175 Sierra SPBT. It probably would have worked fine, but I chose the 175 Nosler Partition which didn't shoot as well. I chose it because of superior penetration. On the other hand, it was shooting about 1.5" groups at 100 yards, and did fine out at 300, giving me roughly 4" groups out there. It also did a fine job on a 6x6 bull at about 180 yards, giving complete penetration and a quick kill.

BTW - regarding the 180 BT - a buddy of mine took .300 Win mag ammo in both the 180 BT and the 180 Partition to Africa with him for plains game. He and the professional hunter were very impressed with the extremely quick kills he made with the ballistic tip bullets - much quicker than the partitions according to him. They're good bullets and I'd use 'em on elk in a heartbeat.

Regards, Guy

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

You will be totally fine from the MUZZLE on out to 500-600 yards with the 180g NBT from an 06. Dont let anyone fool you into thinking you need a "premium" or "bonded" bullet to kill elk from a standard cartridge. There muzzle velocity is lower which gives better penetration versus a magnum cartridge firing the same bullet at a higher velocity. Why? Because the higher the impact velocity, the more the bullet breaks apart and loses its mass and momentum. Premium and bonded bullets are for magnums and wildcats IMO. Standard cartridges can do with standard bullets.

A 30-06 w/180's shoots what 2800fps?? If I remember correctly, an NBT has an IMPACT VELOCITY limit of 3000-3100fps. Since an 06 w/180 doesn't even come close to hitting that at the muzzle, I have to ask why on gods green earth are people still recomending AB's and PT's???

I load the 180g NBT for several guys with 300 Win mags at 3000-3100fps and they have no trouble dropping elk, deer, antelope, black bear from 50 yards on out to 800 yards. We've only recovered like 2 bullets from elk that were on the far side hide after punching through both shoulders. Dam good all around .30 cal bullet if you ask me. Cheap, accurate, have a high BC, repeatable performance.

Take the NBT hunting and go kill your elk and report back to us on how it did the job.

 

[Charlie-NY]

I guess you could have the best of both worlds by shooting a 180 AccuBond in place of the 180 BT.

In my experience they OFTEN shoot very similar, both in group size and point of impact. It's worth a try if you would like to use the AccuBond bullet.

For whatever it's worth, I prefer the extra assurance I get with the Accubonds and even use them in my .308 for whitetails. They may not ever be needed in a .308 but they give me more confidence. The whitetails don't seem to notice when they skid into the dirt. :lol:

 

[Idaho_Elk_Huntr]

Ive shot elk, deer and moose with Ballistic Tips. All I can say its a shame to waste 50+ lbs of elk or moose to bullet performance so I no longer use them. They may be excellent way out but up close they do to much damage

 

[JD338]

Rem 700

Temperature and humidity could also be the culprit. Are you shooting a wood or composit stock rifle?
I would re shoot the current load again. If no change in accuracy, time to try a different powder.

JD338

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Well to each there own I guess. I just find it quite odd that there is still so many people that bad mouth ballistic tips, especially from standard cartridges. They dont do any more damage then any other non premium bullet from what I've seen up close. Show me a bullet that doesn't do a lot of damage up close.

Throwing out a bit of ruined meat is better then not getting any meat at all IMO.

 

[FOTIS]

The bt's will do ok from the 06

 

[DrMike]

One cup and core bullet at velocities generated by standard cartridges will not destroy any more meat than another. Without question many people have taken moose and elk with Ballistic Tips shot from a 30-06.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Cheap, accurate, have a high BC, repeatable performance.

That's what I look for in a bullet.

 

[C.Smith]

This has been a very interesting discussion. You guys now have me wondering why I'm using Accubonds in my 30-06 instead of 180 BTs. How would the 165 grain BTs hold up on Elk? (Mind you I live in Washington and will only be shooting at spike elk.
Or would the 180m grain BT be a better all around bullet for deer and elk?
Corey

 

[Bigwheels]

I use the 250 AB in my 338 WM, but I also have a 308 that I use 150 BT's in. for short range, brushy stuff. I found that the 200 BT's in my 338 were like a grenade on impact out to 200 yds. But the AB isn't a whole lot better either. Either one will destroy a lot of meat, but I'd rather lose some meat than an animal.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

The 180g nbt would be a better all around, and especially for elk then the lighter 165g nbt. The more weight, higher SD, and lower impact velocity all help in making sure it gets to the other side, plus they hit harder.

On a sidenote, my good friend uses a 30-06 w/168g CT NBT's and he has killed about 3 elk with them and I'm pretty sure he said they've all exited.

 

[JD338]

C.Smith

I too would recommend you use the 180 gr BT. 30-06 impact velocities are perfect for the BT or AB.

JD338

 

[Rem 700]

Thanks for all the discussion. Obviously, to each his own. However, I think there was enough discussion that pushed me toward the 180 BT's, but again, that's mainly because I want the better accuracy, and for some reason my powder and load shoot better with the 180 BT's. When, I get rich from winning the lottery I will experiment witht the H4350 and the AB's as well as other combos. But for now. I will probably stick with the BT's. Thanks again, everybody.