another caliber question(sorry)

J

JDMAG

Handloader
Aug 15, 2006
908
0
OK I have another caliber I have questions about.These are calibers I have no experience with, and as you know from earlier posts,I am looking for a larger caliber for my son to use for elk in a couple of years. I am sorry to raise so many questions, But he has had a problem with flinching and is just getting over it as of late, and I don't want to get it started again. I have never had a problem such as his, and have shot 300 mags both Win and RUM, and 338 with no problem. He isn't the same, but can shoot. I'm rambling.
The next caliber up for discussion is the .308. I know this is more than adequate for deer, but will it be a good elk load? recoil is much lower than the 30-06, and the 7 mag.with a break, I just don't know what to do any more.
PLEASE HELP!
JD :?:
 
Look it is easy. With reduced loads a 30-06 or even better a 270 Win will make an awesome starter. This is what I did with my boy. He chose a Savage 270 Win with the accutrigger, Walmart special at $370 complete package.
With h4895 and 90 grain HP' at 2000 fps no prairie dog had a chance last summer. Last month he wacked an antelope with full loads 130 BT at 3100 fps at 242 yards.

Now...... show me an elk that can take a 277 cal 130, 140, or 150 grain AccuBond or Partition in the boiler room!!!!!
 
JDMAG,
I don't own one nor probably never will, but the 30-06 has probably taken more elk than about any round out there. ( I just have other preference )
As POP stated....270 maybe .270wsm? .280 or even a 7-08 the little sister of the .308. All are certianly capable of taking an elk.
Keep him with a lot of trigger time behind the .22 as previously talked about.
There are more and more reduced recoil rounds out there to include the 7-08. Look for a good deal, save some $ and put a break on it for him, give it that personal touch for him... just another confidence booster. He's off to a great start !!!
What part of the country would you be looking to go elk hunting ?
 
How did I let the 7mm-08 escape me? I have a Stevens Savage that cost me under 300 bucks, like this one
http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vi ... =114690130

shoots 120 bts at 3100 fps and 1" at 200 yards

0912081438a.jpg


Headshot a goat at 304 yards this year!

Shoots 150 Partition at 2750 fps



Cartridge : 7 mm-08 Rem.
Bullet : .284, 150, Nosler PART SP 16326
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch or 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 60000 psi, or 413 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

101 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Ramshot Hunter 103.7 48.6 3.15 2811 98.2 60000 10333 1.088 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 101.0 47.0 3.05 2802 97.5 60000 10277 1.093 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 103.4 46.5 3.01 2797 99.3 60000 10127 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 102.5 45.1 2.92 2782 99.9 60000 9683 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 99.4 45.2 2.93 2781 99.9 60000 9669 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 96.9 45.4 2.94 2773 98.0 60000 9998 1.105 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 97.8 41.6 2.70 2770 100.0 60000 9074 1.084 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 105.0 45.9 2.98 2767 98.1 57216 10081 1.106 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 105.0 45.7 2.96 2758 99.1 57061 9919 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 96.5 42.5 2.75 2757 99.7 60000 9510 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 96.5 42.5 2.75 2757 99.7 60000 9510 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 96.5 42.5 2.75 2757 99.7 60000 9510 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 97.0 42.7 2.77 2757 99.9 60000 9452 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 105.0 45.7 2.96 2757 99.1 57004 9914 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 91.3 43.8 2.84 2756 100.0 60000 9332 1.110 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 105.0 47.7 3.09 2755 95.0 59101 10034 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 98.6 43.9 2.84 2754 100.0 60000 9333 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 103.8 43.9 2.84 2747 100.0 60000 9256 1.119 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 97.9 44.0 2.85 2746 99.1 60000 9579 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 98.5 42.6 2.76 2742 99.8 60000 9165 1.094 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 100.7 43.3 2.81 2739 100.0 60000 9245 1.115 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 516 94.2 44.2 2.86 2737 99.0 60000 9452 1.104 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 94.0 42.7 2.77 2733 99.9 60000 9196 1.106 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 96.2 39.5 2.56 2731 100.0 60000 8512 1.111 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 93.5 42.4 2.75 2725 100.0 60000 8732 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 103.0 42.4 2.74 2724 100.0 60000 8730 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 90.6 41.6 2.69 2723 100.0 60000 8931 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 99.0 42.1 2.73 2719 99.6 60000 9132 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 98.7 42.1 2.73 2719 99.6 60000 9132 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S341 92.4 43.7 2.83 2718 99.8 60000 8969 1.107 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 99.1 42.1 2.73 2718 100.0 60000 8668 1.101 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 105.0 45.9 2.98 2712 100.0 50981 9669 1.167
IMR 4064 99.7 41.4 2.68 2712 99.7 60000 8965 1.106 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 102.5 44.3 2.87 2711 96.7 60000 9446 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 99.3 44.3 2.87 2711 96.7 60000 9438 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 96.1 42.7 2.77 2705 100.0 60000 8661 1.114 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 90.4 40.6 2.63 2704 100.0 60000 8802 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 93.8 40.6 2.63 2701 100.0 60000 8499 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 95.8 39.8 2.58 2700 100.0 60000 8373 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R902 96.2 40.8 2.64 2696 100.0 60000 8693 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 101.9 43.1 2.79 2692 100.0 60000 8609 1.110 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 105.0 43.6 2.82 2680 100.0 58219 8639 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R901 92.3 38.6 2.50 2677 100.0 60000 8337 1.134 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 102.3 40.8 2.64 2673 100.0 60000 7975 1.123 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 90.8 39.3 2.55 2665 100.0 60000 8287 1.112 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 92.9 40.4 2.62 2663 100.0 60000 8416 1.109 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700 100.2 45.5 2.95 2661 96.4 60000 8870 1.117 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 105.0 46.2 2.99 2660 93.5 52840 9706 1.153
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 105.0 46.2 2.99 2660 93.5 52840 9706 1.153
ADI AR 2206H 92.1 40.5 2.62 2657 99.9 60000 8382 1.108 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 105.0 44.2 2.86 2640 98.0 49320 9655 1.211
Somchem S335 93.8 40.3 2.61 2635 100.0 60000 7845 1.127 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 105.0 45.9 2.98 2634 92.8 50506 9744 1.171
Alliant Reloder-19 105.0 46.2 2.99 2619 92.7 49003 9768 1.191
Norma MRP 105.0 48.2 3.12 2616 93.0 44731 10456 1.233
Vihtavuori N133 95.5 38.4 2.49 2614 100.0 60000 7444 1.120 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 105.0 45.5 2.95 2611 91.9 52047 9292 1.167
IMR 4350 105.0 44.2 2.87 2597 91.9 50251 9357 1.187
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 105.0 46.2 2.99 2592 92.3 47880 9613 1.204
Somchem S385 105.0 46.7 3.03 2578 93.8 47656 9439 1.223
IMR 7828 SSC 105.0 47.4 3.07 2575 88.6 46107 9880 1.218
Vihtavuori N560 105.0 47.2 3.06 2548 87.3 43187 10004 1.256
ADI AR 2213 105.0 46.7 3.03 2544 88.1 45295 9656 1.229
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 105.0 46.7 3.03 2537 90.2 42498 9853 1.267
Alliant Reloder-22 105.0 46.7 3.03 2537 90.2 42498 9853 1.267
Raufoss RA15 105.0 46.7 3.03 2537 90.2 42498 9853 1.267
IMR 4831 105.0 44.2 2.87 2519 94.9 42971 9270 1.276
Hodgdon H4831 SC 105.0 46.7 3.03 2517 87.4 46000 9139 1.228
Accurate MAGPRO 105.0 49.1 3.18 2508 84.3 41743 9825 1.280
Rottweil R905 105.0 45.8 2.97 2468 86.7 41208 9226 1.290
Winchester WXR 105.0 45.7 2.96 2458 88.3 39002 9501 1.320
Vihtavuori N160 105.0 44.3 2.87 2415 88.0 41920 8418 1.291
Vihtavuori N165 105.0 45.7 2.96 2415 90.1 40151 8617 1.312
SNPE Vectan SP 12 105.0 49.3 3.19 2413 84.6 38551 9419 1.326
IMR 7828 105.0 44.9 2.91 2408 84.6 38269 9123 1.329
PB Clermont PCL 517 105.0 49.3 3.19 2407 84.3 38349 9393 1.330
Hodgdon H4831 105.0 44.9 2.91 2404 84.8 40321 8653 1.306
Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy) 105.0 49.2 3.19 2403 84.2 38149 9380 1.333
Alliant Reloder-25 105.0 45.9 2.98 2389 90.5 35373 9458 1.374
ADI AP 2214 105.0 47.9 3.11 2382 83.8 39140 8914 1.321
Accurate 3100 105.0 43.7 2.83 2307 90.4 33572 8482 1.435
Norma MRP 2 105.0 46.2 2.99 2277 81.3 31380 8916 1.447
Hodgdon H1000 105.0 45.7 2.96 2231 79.4 32973 8147 1.424
Vihtavuori N570 105.0 48.7 3.16 2214 70.5 30596 8666 1.476
Hodgdon Retumbo 105.0 46.4 3.01 2140 78.4 28074 8244 1.520
Vihtavuori N170 105.0 45.7 2.96 2116 71.7 28926 7398 1.517
Vihtavuori 24N41 105.0 49.2 3.19 2094 63.0 30319 7161 1.499
ADI AR 2218 105.0 49.2 3.19 2055 60.3 28394 7220 1.540
Hodgdon H870 105.0 47.7 3.09 2016 66.4 24729 7499 1.627
Hodgdon US 869 105.0 49.2 3.19 1991 63.0 25541 7024 1.613
Hodgdon 50BMG 105.0 46.9 3.04 1941 55.3 24813 6401 1.635
SNPE Vectan SP 13 105.0 47.2 3.06 1884 61.5 22081 6394 1.719
PB Clermont PCL 513/520/9520 105.0 47.2 3.06 1830 58.0 20977 6033 1.760
Vihtavuori 20N29 105.0 49.7 3.22 1801 54.3 20693 5918 1.769
Accurate 8700 105.0 47.3 3.06 1795 55.7 20788 5679 1.772
NC A3502 ,test only 105.0 45.2 2.93 1727 40.0 21342 4367 1.767
TLP A 502(RH) ,test only 105.0 45.2 2.93 1703 42.6 19722 4571 1.821
V1734 7-multiperf ,test only 105.0 45.2 2.93 1240 19.8 11736 2133 2.314
 
I will never recomend to not find a reason to buy another gun but, you could go with reduced loads for target practice and switch to heavy loads durring hunting season.
I developed a flinch problem with my 300 mag and 180gr bullets. My trigger was unpredictable and the scope bit me once or twice.
I cured the problem shooting 110 gr Hornady sp's, a limbsaver pad and a trigger job.
The 110 gr bullets have the recoil of a 243.
if you want a new gun...... the 280 is great. It's right in between the 270 and 30'06. Make it a 280ai and you can keep up with the 7mm mag
 
Probably back in the Flat tops in Colorado. First rifle season. I would have preferd a muzzle loader hunt, but he seems to be heart set on a rifle hunt. it will be guided with an out fitter I trust because I dont have a place out there other than that to take him. I have been told that the magnitude of the blast from a muzzle break can create a flinch but I feel that his came strictly from the recoil of a very hard kicking 12 guage 870 that he used on a turkey hunt. that gun is gone now because it did kick like a mule! I'm pretty sure based alot on what pop said that I will go with a 30-06, and I may still have a break put on it for him.
Thanks,
JD
 
can you put those tables in a form that a hillbilly can read! :?
 
JDMAG,
I grew up at the base of the Flat-Tops and spent quite a bit of time up there. Absolutely do some research on Guides before heading this direction...
Don't overlook the 7-08 as it would be a great choice for both locations.. they are easy to load for like POP's above... I've got a target posted somewhere else in here too....
Good luck on the decisions...

NOTE: The brakes are just rough on the ears... nothing coming back to you that you can actually feel.. just don't leave home without hearing protection...
 
JDMAG":l1pthfk3 said:
can you put those tables in a form that a hillbilly can read! :?
Click to expand...

Powder..... Filling/Loading Ratio..... .....Charge .......Velocity

so....
Powder= Ramshot Hunter
Filling/Loading Ratio=103.7% full
Charge= 48.6 grains
velocity =2811 fps
 
I would go with a 30-06.
You can handload it down and make some great practice loads and get your son over the flinching issue, then build the loads up to strength suitable for deer and elk.
This is the same process I am doing for my son who is 12 and on the small side, I got a Winchester model 70 Carbine in '06, shortened the stock for him and put on a good recoil pad, and had the trigger smoothed up.
Then loaded some 130 and 135 grain Single shot pistol bullets from Hornady and Sierra, plus some Nosler 125gr BT's with 15 grains of Unique, and my son loves shooting that gun.
Recoil is mild and gives him the confidence of shooting a bigger caliber without getting kicked to death.
The single shot pistol bullets shoot around a 1 inch group at 100 yards, and are running about 1900fps. Good blacktail deer load for western Oregon.
Our deer season ends this week, but we are going to spend the winter shooting and getting more practice and continue to increase the load so in a couple years when he is ready for elk, he'll be shooting more than likely the same 165gr AB load I use for deer and elk.

The '06 is very much a favorite of mine, I have three of them in the vualt, and it took me a while to decide that it was also going to be the starter gun/load for my son. But the above listed load is based on lead bullet data for the '06. And to be honest I love shooting it as much as my son.

A bit of a ramble, I know, but it might help get your son over his flinching as well, and he'll fall in love with a single rifle that he really gains confidence in shooting.
 
I was looking over your other post on 7 mag and 300 Win Mag, Not sure how old your son is but I get the impression he's a teenager.
The CCI Manual has some reduced loads listed for 30-06 but not as low as where I started. I had to go to a Lyman manual for lead bullet info then used jacketed bullets.
I shoot a T/C Contender which is what got me thinking about single shot pistol bullets, which were designed to work at slower velocities.

Lots of options out there, I'm trying to decide on a magnum rifle myself currently.
Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
 
Gotta say that I have heard of more than one elk falling to a 7mm-08. I would also recomend hearing protection every time he shoots. Our body registers the report of a rifle as pain even a .22. I can get you the name of a good smith here in Mn. CL
 
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