Berger VLD Question

[Wondermutt]

I know this is not a Nosler question, but I bought a custom 30-06 last year, and the load development the previous owner came up with was with VLD bullets.

SO off to Cableas to buy some. Then low and behold, there are target, hunting, hybrid and one other that I can't remember.

I tried to get in touch with the P/O however no contact.

So I ask you guys: What are the differences? The load called for 50.5g of Varget and a 168g VLD. He used the VLD for all of his big game hunting if that matters.

Thanks

 

[DrMike]

The Berger site goes into some detail concerning the various bullets offered.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/information/line-and-designs/

In brief, the target bullets (also known as match bullets) are for that purpose. Jackets tend to be frangible. The hunting bullets (whether VLD or hybrid) have somewhat thicker jackets. Hybrid bullets incorporate different shapes in the nose in an effort to gain an advantage in distance shooting. The link is worth a read before you settle on a bullet design.

 

[rick smith]

Actually the jackets on the hunting VLDs are thinner than the regular match bullets. Done so to promote expansion. Rick.

 

[Guy Miner]

The Berger site goes into some detail concerning the various bullets offered.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/information/line-and-designs/

In brief, the target bullets (also known as match bullets) are for that purpose. Jackets tend to be frangible. The hunting bullets (whether VLD or hybrid) have somewhat thicker jackets. Hybrid bullets incorporate different shapes in the nose in an effort to gain an advantage in distance shooting. The link is worth a read before you settle on a bullet design.

Rick is correct. The "hunting" VLD has a thinner jacket than the "match" or "target" VLD.

The thin jacket version was introduced first, and is the one found to be such a terrific hunting bullet. I had excellent results, using the 115 gr Berger VLD at nearly 3200 fps from my .25-06, on a few mule deer.

Typical performance I noted:
TINY entrance, hard to find even. Penetration of 2-3" before expansion initiates. This is in stark contrast to pretty much all expanding hunting bullets, which start expanding on contact.

Once the Berger VLD starts to expand, it expands RAPIDLY, and even comes apart, flinging bullet fragments inside the chest cavity, causing massive destruction. Very fast kills are the norm. May or may not be an exit wound.

I happen to like them, quite a bit, as a hunting bullet for deer-sized game. The superb accuracy potential of these bullets is another benefit. After all, they were originally intended for long-range target competition.

There were problems with some of the jackets coming apart in fast-twist match rifles, loaded to max velocity for 1,000 yard competition, so Berger started producing a thicker-jacketed version, for match shooting. Solved the problem. Some people have reported excellent hunting success with these thicker jacketed bullets as well, but Berger doesn't promote them for that purpose.

I have no experience with the "hybrid" Berger bullet.

Strongly suggest going to Berger's web site and "getting smart" about their products. It's a bullet with different characteristics from most hunting bullets. Some swear by them, some swear at them. Most who swear at them, in my experience, have NO direct knowledge of their on-game or even on-target performance.

Regards, Guy

 

[Wondermutt]

Thanks for the info. I actually called them today. Told me to try the hunting version first.

Guy is 100% spot on. the CS rep at Berger said the exact same thing.

Once again this site has become a valuable resource.

WM

 

[Guy Miner]

Gotta tell you though - that impressed as I was with the Berger VLD, after a few seasons, I switched back to "my" Noslers...

 

[Elkman]

i have personally not used the VLD for hunting, but have seen hundreds of posts regarding the variability of their performance. It seems that a large number of users love them, and a large number do not. I have yet to meet anyone who has had a problem with the Partition, (including me), so I have used them for many years. I may try and test the New Swift bullet this fall, if I have adequate time for range work prior to hunting season.

 

[NWBlacktail]

I'm going to give the Berger VLD hunting a try as well. It definitely takes a "leap of faith" since the concept of using bullets designed to shatter after a few inches of penetration is so different.

The key issue with these bullets is you need to make sure the hollow point is open. If it's blocked with brass plating or whatever, it's going to essentially be a FMJ, and not expand correctly. So just a bit of sorting, and maybe some modifications to the few with the hollow point blocked is all it takes.

 

[SJB358]

It is one of those bullets that like Bill mentioned you either really love or as Guy mentioned, you hear poor performance stories. They do seem to work great most of the time since heavier or heaviest for caliber are used so there is a good amount of mass.

After seeing a couple animals killed now, I'm not sure if the dramatic effect of their killing are the tiny bits of copper and lead "fragmenting" or if it is actually the probably large frontal area it's expanded to before it actually grenades. Same for the PT, it has almost always lost the frontal lead in my experience with excellent wound channels that thin out as the shank continues penetrating.

I still believe the killingest bullet out there would be a bullet that can hold onto the large frontal area and not shed a lot of weight combining all aspects. I'm probably off base but it seems most of the recovered bullets I've heard, read or experienced that had large front ends dumped a huge amount of energy, disrupted a lot of tissue and were caught in the hide because they were so large.

I think there are a few hunters I know that are running Bergers this year so it'll be cool to see how they work for them.

 

[.300winmag]

I run Berger's In my .300 Win. Mag., I used to use the 210 Berger but have since switched to the 215 Hybrid. I've seen game shot with the hunting, target and hybrid. I have witnessed kills first hand from 157 yards to 600 yards with the 210 and a buddy shot a cow last year at 412 with the 215 and said it dropped like a sack of potatoes. I have been pleased with terminal performance, and their ballistics and accuracy are unbelievable. I'll more than likely be using 215 Berger's for my bear and bull this year. The thing I've learned over the years is you either love them or hate them for hunting. Look on the bullet selection page, I've posted a few things on there on the Berger's, all .30 Cal.

 

[SJB358]

That is one thing you cannot deny, they are accurate as you've shown us over and over Brian. 215 grains is a lot of mass in a 30 caliber bullet. Hard to dispute them.

 

[Darkhorse]

Call me old fashioned, call me a stubborn old man. I am all of that. But I have read about the berger's and seen them on TV and I just can't make myself try them as a hunting bullet.
I think the performance trait of "Penetrate 3 or 4 inches, then explode sending lead and copper shrapnel all inside the body cavity" sorta gives me a cold feeling.
Doesn't this leave lead residue in the meat? And isn't there a lot of ruined meat?
I just think I like the PT's, and the Accubonds, and the tougher cup and core bullets better.
For years we have sought a fast expanding bullet that penetrated deeply and retained all the weight possible. Sometimes all we get are quartering shots and I will take that shot in a heartbeat. But only if I know the bullet and how it performs. But from what I know of the Berger I wouldn't want to take that shot.
But I really don't know what I'm talking about as I've never actually shot one.

 

[Guy Miner]

Actually I noted Very Little ruined meat.

There is a pencil sized entry wound.

Then the Berger expands violently in the lung tissue, usually producing instant death.

Then the remnant of the bullet is embedded in, or penetrates through the off side.

At least that's my experience.

Regards, Guy

 

[joelkdouglas]

Guy why did you go back to Noslers?


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[SJB358]

Guy why did you go back to Noslers?


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I forgot I was going to ask that as well.

 

[Guy Miner]

Guy why did you go back to Noslers?


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Hard habit to break - started using them in the 1970's and they've always done well for me.

Never had any problem with the Bergers, but never had any problems with my Noslers either and have just been a Nosler shooter a long time, both for hunting and match shooting. Very pleased with their performance, particularly the Ballistic Tips for hunting med size game like mule deer.

The Bergers were just something wanted to try for myself, and I did so for a few years. They performed as advertised, for me. Guess I satisfied that curiosity on my part and went back to business as usual, using Noslers for my hunting.

Regards, Guy

 

[Wondermutt]

Good info.

I got some Hunting VLD's to baseline what the fella said was most accurate in this Remington.

I will compare them with the AB's and Partitions I normally use. I am not looking for a 500+ yard -06 so if the grouping is the same or close at 300 yards, I will be sticking with the Noslers.

I really did not want to change, but I have to give it a go anyways.... besides who does not like a reason to shoot?

 

[Wondermutt]

So I made it to the range (Plywood backing for a target holder and a fir tree for a rest) today and made some 100 yard shots.

I used 50.5g of varget for the VLD's and 55.0 g of IMR-4350 with the AB's. All loads were primed with CCI large rifle primers. I cut the powder charge of the varget/180 ab combo to 49g and what surprised me was 1. The POI was higher and 2. The felt recoil was much less with the Varget.

I only fired two round groups, well, because I really don't know why :mrgreen:

The two wingers were a wood stock 300 RUM with no recoil pad... yeah I flinched

 

[IdahoCTD]

I was always in the mindset of using controlled expansion bullets until a few years ago, even though I had killed a few animals with VLD's and have seen a LOT of animals killed with VLD's. I started shooting Berger's in the early 90's before there were different versions. Those bullets are now what they put in the orange boxes as hunting bullets. 5 years ago I tried some Matrix .30 caliber 210gr VLD's and had terrible (read no) expansion. I still killed 2 elk shot through the lungs but the damage done was almost non-existent. Then I started shooting my 6.5-300wm with 140gr Amax's a lot and figured I'd try it out on elk. I've killed 3 elk, a antelope, and a deer in the last 3 years with them and my dad has used the 162gr 7mm version in his 7-300wm to take 3 elk and a antelope in the last 3 years. All of the elk have been shot under 350yds and the 3 I shot were under 150yds. That is a pretty tough on a fragile bullet doing 3230fps at the muzzle. While Amax's generally don't exit they do a lot of damage. My dad lost some meat on his elk he shot a couple weekends ago with a shoulder shot but most any bullet would have lost some. There is always the chance of a poor shot and losing an animal but that can happen with a conventional bullet as well.

I have lost a elk I shot at 890yds with a 190 Berger VLD and initially though it was all the bullets fault but in reality the elk took a step just as I shot and he took the hit in the femur (he was kind of bound up not quite quartering away from me angling up hill). A tougher bullet might have made it to the other leg and got me the elk but that isn't a guarantee because the velocity/energy loss would have been much higher with the conventional bullets available in the mid '90's. We followed that elk for over 2 miles, jumped it twice, found part of the femur bone, and finally lost it when it got low enough in elevation to get out of the snow. We even got lost trying to find our way back to camp and didn't get back until 1am in the morning.

Needless to say I wouldn't worry about shooting them for game. If I get drawn for a second elk tag in the next few days I'll probably shoot it with my 30-338 Norma Imp with 230gr Bergers at 3045fps and I'll hunt with my 6.5-300wm or maybe my 6.5saum for my non-resident bull elk tag. Both of those will be with 140 Amax's.

 

[wingnut]

Yea, that’s the way to do it guys, using a cup and core paper punching bullet for hunting big game. Old man J.A. Nosler should be rolling in his grave. :shock: