Bitteroot Bonded Core

[SJB358]

Any of you all ever used the old Bitterroot Bonded Core bullets made by Bill Steigers? Just wondering if any of you all have any of them on your shelf or used them to take game? I asked the question a little on another post, but just wanted to throw it out there to the forum?

Seems guys like Bob Hagel and a few others really had great luck with them. If you have pictures of groups, rifles used, bullets from jugs, paper, animals would be cool as well.

 

[truck driver]

Scotty, Just for the heck of it I goggled Bitteroot Bullets and there is a company loading ammo under that name and there is a Bonded core bullet they make.

 

[SJB358]

Huh, I'll have to check them out.. Didn't know that.

 

[andrewctillman]

SJB,

In about 1982 Bill published my extensive test of all available 375 bullets at std and improved velocities recovered from 5 gallon water cans from point blank out to 500 yards.

Many many pictures of expanded bullets across the velocity spectrum.

Aslo pics from bison.

You can write or call him to get a copy. Dont recall what he charges for it but a great resource.

You can Google him in Lewiston, Idaho or send me PM for his email.

I have a few 250, 275 and 300 grain Bitteroots available if you need some, send me a PM. (I sold my last 375 recently or else I would hoard them).

 

[Guy Miner]

More than 30 years ago Bill was kind enough to write a letter to me, when as a young Marine, I wrote him a note asking for his thoughts on cartridges & bullets for mule deer & elk hunting. I was stationed in Okinawa, and dreaming of western big game hunting.

Never did get around to using any of his bullets though. Noslers were available, his were tough to get back then.

Guy

 

[SJB358]

You aren't kidding Guy. I have heard that he hasn't made bullets in about 15 years, so running down any of his bullets to try is pretty tough. I will say this, ANYONE that has used his bullets on game says they are the best expanding bullet they have ever used. Said there is no comparison to the BBC's than just about anything else out there. All of the pictures I have seen show them opening wide and retaining most everything in regards to weight. Been asking as many people that will listen and I haven't heard the first bad thing about his bullets.

Again, as a young reader of Bob Hagel, I heard and read about them, but haven't SEEN the first one of his bullets.

 

[DrMike]

I think I said on a post on another thread (believe you started it, Scotty) that I sold the last package of my BBC bullets at the local gun show this past spring. They were a good bullet that simply couldn't be supplied in sufficient quantity to keep interest up.

 

[SJB358]

I remember you saying that Mike. I guess I just wanna try em. Read about them quite a lot as a kid, so I'd be cool to hunt with a bullet besides the PT that I've been reading about since my early shooting days.

 

[DrMike]

Gotcha; and I'm in agreement with looking again at some of the older stuff.

 

[Guy Miner]

I tried some of the original copper-tube & pure lead Barnes bullets. Was not impressed. That was in .300 Win mag though. Lots of copper fouling and poor accuracy from a rifle that usually shot rather well.

Some of the "older stuff" is well worthwhile. Some of it, not so great.

Old stuff I still like includes: Speer "hot core" bullets. Sierra Gameking & Matchking bullets (within their specified envelope), Nosler Partitions, Nosler Solid Base (no longer made, but I've got more than a few), Hornady Interlock soft points... Those have all treated me well and are products from decades past.

 

[super-7]

A couple questions , is there a big difference or fairly similar of the bitterroot bullet and the orginal Trophy bonded bearclaws?
Was Bill Steiger part of Stieger brothers manufacturing that made the Stiegrer line of 4wd ag tractors in the late 70's to mid 80's before selling out to Case/ IH?

 

[SJB358]

Super-7, the Bitterroot is actually like an AB since there is no copper solid shank, just a thick copper jacket that is bonded to the lead core. It is amazing to me, but every recovered bullet I have seen has the bullet stopping expansion with a WIDE mushroon with a large full shank still left. No more than a few grains have shed off the bullet at most.

The TBBC, Northfork and others have the solid copper shank, so they work much the same, but Bill was building bullets like this probably before I was alive. It is amazing to me. I haven't seen anything like them in the bonded bullet arena, except for the Northforks. The Woodleighs I shot the other day were close to looking the same, but my velocity was much less than the screaming speeds these guys were running Bitterroots at. I have been told the faster you push them, the better they are in killing. Heard alot of folks mentioning dropping to 165's in the 300 Wby and it killing like a true lightening bolt.

I believe Bill Steigers was the ballistician for Speer when Vernon Speer.

Guy, I ran that same 180 XLC from my old 300 magnum. It wasn't the most accurate bullet, but I did take one bull with it, along with a muley. Didn't fine if you hit bone, but wasn't a great bullet in my opinion. Not even in the same league as a PT.

 

[DrMike]

A couple questions , is there a big difference or fairly similar of the bitterroot bullet and the orginal Trophy bonded bearclaws?

Different bullets altogether. I shot a lot of TBBC at one time (while living in Jasper, AB), ordering them directly from Jack Carter. The Bitterroot Bonded Core Bullets were already rarely seen at that time.

 

[SJB358]

Here is a picture of one.



The interesting part of the bullet is it STOPS expansion leaving alot of shank, like it has a PT or solid copper shank. There is none of that on the BBC

 

[alaska100]

Scotty,

maybe pm April, Hank, Doug or George on a different forum. One of them might have some. I would start with April. You might also try Kevin

As I mentioned to you my uncle used them and liked them but doesnt have any left or we would send some to you.

I think A said something about the woodleigh weldcore bring similar to them but not sure about that

 

[SJB358]

Thanks Sean. I will ask them and see what they say.

 

[andrewctillman]

The Woodleigh is no where near a Bitterroot. Amazing when you consider Bill was making this great bullet in the late 1960's long before Jack Carter (TBBC), or Lee Reed (Swift) popularized bonded bullets.

The Woody has a 90/10% jacket I think and is a straight taper, meaning same thickness along entire surface area.

Bills bullets were 100% copper jacket and swaged so there was more copper towards base than front of bullets ogive. That is why the jacket eventually stopped expansion. The xerox of the PT and Bitteroot does not really show how thick the heel is. It measures 0.064 inches at heel in a .375.

As most of you all know, 0.016 is standard and a double thick jacket like Sierra 300 grain 375, or Woody 410 grain 416 might be 0.032. The best old time bullet ever made, the Winchester Power Point, was 0.049 and made out of brass with a flash coating of copper. By far the best conventional brand ever made. And far superior to Speer Hot Core, GS, or Hornady Interlok. (The spire point did most of the work slowing down expansion with the Hornady).

Closest clone to a Bitterroot was the Kodiak made in Alaska. I only tried them in 375 and 458. Not very accurate but a far cry better than a Woody.

I think it is great you guys are discussing elders of the tribe like Bill Steigers. I refer to Bitterroot as "The original and still best," bonded bunting bullet ever made. No equal for frontal area and weight retention. A 250 grain 375 at 3150 fps, 180 grain .300 at nearly 3,400 fps, and a 140 grain 7mm at 3350 fps will all hold 90 - 95% weight retention and mash flat without the expanded mushroom sweeping back parallel to the bearing surface of the bullet.

I got Bill and Mike Brady together for an interview in 2005, and Mike wrote what is probably the most accurate history of bonded bullet development for Dakota magazine. I cannot find a link to that article, but if anyone can find it please post it.

I have the original text but do not have permission to post it, as I have not visited with Mike for several years.

Mike mentions Bills bonded solid base which he discarded because they were too long to stabilize compared to his original design in this link from the NF website.

http://esdocs.org/docs/index-25566.html

PS Bill published my exhaustive test of every available 375 bullet then available in US in 1982. Lots of pictures of Bitterroots and everything else under the sun, from point blank range out to 500 yards at both std and improved velocities. Great reference for the bullet historian.

 

[alaska100]

Scotty, found my notes and I was wrong about the Woodleigh and A

A was talking about the GSC and Norma Oryx, but not in conjunction with the Bitterroot conversation.

April was talking about the Ackley Controlled Expansion and Northfork in conjunction with the Bitterroot conversation. ACE before and NF after. I think it was also April that was talking about the Woodleigh and Rhino and the differences between them all.

Scotty, my uncle is going to call several old timers and see if cant find a box or two for you. As I said before he thought they were great bullets, but also believes Northfork, Woodleigh, Swift, Norma, Nosler, Rhino, GSC, etc makes good bullets and they are available ---well some are, some of the time lol

 

[Guy Miner]

Guy, I ran that same 180 XLC from my old 300 magnum. It wasn't the most accurate bullet, but I did take one bull with it, along with a muley. Didn't fine if you hit bone, but wasn't a great bullet in my opinion. Not even in the same league as a PT.

That's yet a different bullet. The XLC was a monolithic copper bullet, coated.

The original Barnes were copper tube, filled with pure lead. Not bonded. Very soft, but not brittle at all. Maybe if I'd pushed it slower, say with a .308 Win instead of the .300 Win mag, I'd have been happier?

Guy

 

[Guy Miner]

Andrew, great info.

Thanks again!