Bonz, 35 Whelen AI, been gone a while.

[Bonz]

I hope to try them this year. 8208 and 200 TTSX's simply shoot amazing in this Whelen Gerry, at a steady 2900. I can't even find a good reason to mess with anything else, other than my supply of 8208 is limited!

What is your barrel length?

Reality is any shooter of the Whelen back in the day would not believe what the old gal is capable of with newer powders. 2900 or more fps from a 200 gr bullet, 2800 or more from a 225 and 2700+ from a 250 gr without straining things. And the fact a 200 gr bullet (controlled expansion) does what the heavies did back then with a much nicer trajectory. Pretty cool.

 

[truck driver]

What is your barrel length?

Reality is any shooter of the Whelen back in the day would not believe what the old gal is capable of with newer powders. 2900 or more fps from a 200 gr bullet, 2800 or more from a 225 and 2700+ from a 250 gr without straining things. And the fact a 200 gr bullet (controlled expansion) does what the heavies did back then with a much nicer trajectory. Pretty cool.

Ha ha and then add the AI chamber and get another 200fps will blow the minds back in the day.

 

[gerry]

2900-3000 fps is pretty impressive for a 200 gr bullet, I ran the TTSX at 2850 with IMR 8208 and could have gone higher, down to a handful though now. When I had my 22" 358 Norma I got that 200 gr TTSX to about 3100 fps and stopped there, actually hunted with a load doing 3000 fps since that is plenty.

 

[Bonz]

TD, I'm not sure I can go along with another 200 FPS from AI chamber. The AI chamber when running equal pressures might be worth 1/4 of that gain. I get more from my 25" barrel (using 25-30 fps/inch) than will from the case capacity increase with the 35 AI, IMO.

Rick Jamison did an article about two decades ago comparing the std '06 to the '06 AI and 30 Gibbs. Used his Oehler strain gauge with factory '06 ammo on a newly cut '06 chamber to get a baseline pressure (left the strain gauge on throughout the process and never removed it even when cutting the new chambers). Then reamed the same chamber out to the '06 AI and loaded to factory pressure for a 66 fps gain at equal pressure. Then again to the 30 Gibbs and loaded those rounds to a gain of 104 fps over the std '06. The AI and Gibbs at equal pressure showed gains to be relatively small. His efforts kept things as comparable and relevant as possible.

With that said, my instinct says the 35 Whelen to 35 Whelen AI gains less capacity than a standard '06 to '06 AI because of the tiny shoulder the Whelen already has.

Gerry, no doubt there are newer powders that will improve the position of the .358 Norma Mag over what you were using with the 200 TTSX, just as the newer powders amp up the Whelen a legitimate 100 -200 fps over past load data with traditional powders.

 

[SJB358]

What is your barrel length?

Reality is any shooter of the Whelen back in the day would not believe what the old gal is capable of with newer powders. 2900 or more fps from a 200 gr bullet, 2800 or more from a 225 and 2700+ from a 250 gr without straining things. And the fact a 200 gr bullet (controlled expansion) does what the heavies did back then with a much nicer trajectory. Pretty cool.

22” barrel on that one.

I love it myself. All you said is true Bonz. The 200 at 2900 or even 2850 as Gerry mentioned is a big game killer. I’ve almost gotten to the point of not even worrying about anything 250 since it’ll just buck harder and that is about it.

 

[gerry]

Bonz, I bet the big Norma with new powders could get up to 3200 fps easily with those 200's. I'm with Scotty and have realized that the heavy weight bullets probably don't gain much over the better 225's and under. I do have some 250's that need to be burnt through eventually though. I can remember shooting full power 35 Whelen loads with the 275 gr Woodleigh in a 7 1/4 ready to carry gun, definitely kicked hard and wasn't very fun BTW Scotty that Ruger looks awesome with that stock, and shoots light out too!

 

[Bonz]

I took my first elk in 2002 with my 35 AI. The original 225 gr Barnes X flat base did the trick in one shot and straight down at 225 yds. I got one elk with the 250 original X flat base and then 3 more with the 200 original X flat base. Had a fit of nostalgia and took two elk with the 250 Hornady spire point over the next two seasons. That 250 Hornady did nothing different, other than as you say, recoiled a bunch more and trajectory is nothing compared to the 200 TTSX. Then the 200 TTSX came along, and I've never looked back. 7 elk and 6 deer (muleys and whitetails) with that now.

Ability to expand and penetrate from hard angles is something I want to have in the quiver of shots I can legitimately take. The 200 TTSX, even though I've never recovered one, I'm sure retains its full weight, just like the two original X bullets (200X, 250X) I did recover from elk. One of those (200 X) was quartering to and ended up under the hide on the opposite rear quarter as a bump that was clearly visible. The other was the 250 X on a hard quartering away behind the ribs and found in the opposite neck meet on butchering.

 

[Bonz]

Hey guys, thought I'd give you the heads up. Barnes has the 200 TTSX in stock. I double checked again tonight. I ordered a couple boxes the other week and they just arrived.

 

[gerry]

That's a pretty impressive list, I haven't recovered a 200 gr TTSX on bears either, all I've shot with them so far. Took a moose with the 225 gr TSX and didn't recover any bullets either.

 

[truck driver]

TD, I'm not sure I can go along with another 200 FPS from AI chamber. The AI chamber when running equal pressures might be worth 1/4 of that gain. I get more from my 25" barrel (using 25-30 fps/inch) than will from the case capacity increase with the 35 AI, IMO.

Rick Jamison did an article about two decades ago comparing the std '06 to the '06 AI and 30 Gibbs. Used his Oehler strain gauge with factory '06 ammo on a newly cut '06 chamber to get a baseline pressure (left the strain gauge on throughout the process and never removed it even when cutting the new chambers). Then reamed the same chamber out to the '06 AI and loaded to factory pressure for a 66 fps gain at equal pressure. Then again to the 30 Gibbs and loaded those rounds to a gain of 104 fps over the std '06. The AI and Gibbs at equal pressure showed gains to be relatively small. His efforts kept things as comparable and relevant as possible.

With that said, my instinct says the 35 Whelen to 35 Whelen AI gains less capacity than a standard '06 to '06 AI because of the tiny shoulder the Whelen already has.

Gerry, no doubt there are newer powders that will improve the position of the .358 Norma Mag over what you were using with the 200 TTSX, just as the newer powders amp up the Whelen a legitimate 100 -200 fps over past load data with traditional po

TD, I'm not sure I can go along with another 200 FPS from AI chamber. The AI chamber when running equal pressures might be worth 1/4 of that gain. I get more from my 25" barrel (using 25-30 fps/inch) than will from the case capacity increase with the 35 AI, IMO.

Rick Jamison did an article about two decades ago comparing the std '06 to the '06 AI and 30 Gibbs. Used his Oehler strain gauge with factory '06 ammo on a newly cut '06 chamber to get a baseline pressure (left the strain gauge on throughout the process and never removed it even when cutting the new chambers). Then reamed the same chamber out to the '06 AI and loaded to factory pressure for a 66 fps gain at equal pressure. Then again to the 30 Gibbs and loaded those rounds to a gain of 104 fps over the std '06. The AI and Gibbs at equal pressure showed gains to be relatively small. His efforts kept things as comparable and relevant as possible.

With that said, my instinct says the 35 Whelen to 35 Whelen AI gains less capacity than a standard '06 to '06 AI because of the tiny shoulder the Whelen already has.

Gerry, no doubt there are newer powders that will improve the position of the .358 Norma Mag over what you were using with the 200 TTSX, just as the newer powders amp up the Whelen a legitimate 100 -200 fps over past load data with traditional powders.

Not picking an argument my friend but all rifles are not created equal since chambers are cut different along with different barrel lengths. Loads that showed pressure in the standard factory chambers show no signs in my Ackely chamber.
I backed my loads off when I saw diminishing gains in muzzle velocity, never did see any signs of over pressure loads which is true to P.O.'s findings that an Ackley improved chambered rifles with the proper throat length will fail before you see signs of over pressure.
His experiments are the proof.

 

[Bonz]

TD, wasn't wanting to give any impression of an argument. He pioneered the engineering and they're wonderful as you and I have known for a good while now.

My counterpoint would include, as you so properly mentioned, rifles are entities unto themselves. There are rifles that show no traditional over pressure signs, and the loads are over pressure when measured with a strain gauge. Velocity is a function of pressure.

The Rick Jamison article with the 30-06 AI versus standard 30-06 speaks volumes to what the AI cartridges will do at equal pressures and there's not a lot of difference. I haven't seen any pressure data from Ackley (other than signs of pressure as his gauge). However if there is measured pressure data, I would like to read that work.

You said it very well, his experiments are proof, yet I don't recall in the two volume set of his any real-time pressure data to correlate with his experiments. I have seen more modern tests show at equal pressures velocity increases are there, but not large. Reference back to Rick Jamison.

Equal pressure signs and equal actual pressure can vary greatly from rifle to rifle as you correctly said. On the numbers, we won't see near a 200 fps gain over a std Whelen, all else equal, when loading to the same pressure.

When you say loads in the standard factory chamber were over pressure (and are not overpressure in the AI), I would expect that as a possible outcome with the slightly larger AI chamber/case capacity shooting the same load (powder charge, bullet) as a factory chambered Whelen.

 

[Double Dropper]

New powders have definitely assisted the 35 Whelen for sure. Using CFE 223 I have lofted 225 grain Game Kings and Accubonds well over 2800 fps out of my 24" gain twist barrel. I could push more but why....its a hammer. The loads I worked up for the 200 grain TTSX were 2950 fps in the standard Whelen. I have yet to try the PP2000 but up here in Alberta Reloader Powders are non-existent.

 

[gerry]

New powders have definitely assisted the 35 Whelen for sure. Using CFE 223 I have lofted 225 grain Game Kings and Accubonds well over 2800 fps out of my 24" gain twist barrel. I could push more but why....its a hammer. The loads I worked up for the 200 grain TTSX were 2950 fps in the standard Whelen. I have yet to try the PP2000 but up here in Alberta Reloader Powders are non-existent.

Those are some powerful loads, pretty amazing what the newer powders can do. Over here in BC it's the same thing, hard to get the Alliant powders so I just stick with Hodgdon, IMR and Winchester since they are much easier to get.

 

[Bonz]

DD, was that 200 TTSX load at 2950 fps with CFE 223 as well? Never worked with it and the 200 gr bullets. It didn't look as promising because it's a bit on the slow side compared to power pro varmint.

As well, 2950 FPS in a standard chamber and 24 inch barrel meshes pretty well with my AI and 25 inch barrel getting another 70 to 80 FPS with the 200 TTSX and still a bit to go based on traditional signs and case head expansion.

 

[SJB358]

Looking forward to trying the Whelen out again this year. Been a couple years I have carried a 35 Whelen bolt gun. These days the little carbine gets used alot when it snows up here.

 

[Double Dropper]

DD, was that 200 TTSX load at 2950 fps with CFE 223 as well? Never worked with it and the 200 gr bullets. It didn't look as promising because it's a bit on the slow side compared to power pro varmint.

As well, 2950 FPS in a standard chamber and 24 inch barrel meshes pretty well with my AI and 25 inch barrel getting another 70 to 80 FPS with the 200 TTSX and still a bit to go based on traditional signs and case head expansion.

Yes sir.