I know that reloading manuals state the brand of brass that they use when developing loads. But, I don't think I have ever seen where it is stated the condition of the brass. Is the brass used in reloading manuals unfired virgin brass? In my modest experience it seems that I get different velocities with new brass compared to brass that was previously fired and resized. Most of the reloading I hear about is with previously fired brass.
Brass used in Reloading Manuals?
- Thread starter NYDAN
- Start date
Interesting question...not sure myself as I never discussed this with Nosler or anyone else when talking to their technicians.
The initial firing will definitely get different velocities than subsequent loads when only neck sizing , as that firstt firing is going to expand the brass to your rifle's chamber, and then less energy is used for this in subsequent firings.
I do know that many recommend full length sizing for hunting loads vs target loads, to mitigate feeding and extraction issues in the field when hunting, so this should reduce the velocity variance, as more energy will go to fireforming the brass to the chamber again when reusing brass. But most also recommend new brass only for hunting loads, and save your once fired (or more) brass for target use. Again, to mitigate issues in the field.
For many that you hear about using previously fired brass are using it for target use, and following recommendations for new brass for hunting, but there are those who use their previously fired brass in the field too.
Might be different for those who are high volume hunters such as varmint and predator vs big game hunters. Or for those that are doing cull hunting or hog hunting, where they are taking many targets in an outing or outings vs one or two.
For the local or back 40 hunter, it may not be the same issue as for those that are spending thousands of dollars on their hunt(s). For the guided hunter investing significant dollars on their adventure experience, the cost of ammunition is the least expensive cost of the trip, and they may or may not be willing to cut costs on the one item that has the biggest influence on the actual performance of successfully killing the target animal(s)! (The ammunition; after all it is the bullet that kills, but the total sum of the components making up that cartridge is what ensures consistent performance in getting that bullet to the target animal from your rifle or firearm)
Comes down to a personal choice in the end, and only you can decide on which is best for you.
The initial firing will definitely get different velocities than subsequent loads when only neck sizing , as that firstt firing is going to expand the brass to your rifle's chamber, and then less energy is used for this in subsequent firings.
I do know that many recommend full length sizing for hunting loads vs target loads, to mitigate feeding and extraction issues in the field when hunting, so this should reduce the velocity variance, as more energy will go to fireforming the brass to the chamber again when reusing brass. But most also recommend new brass only for hunting loads, and save your once fired (or more) brass for target use. Again, to mitigate issues in the field.
For many that you hear about using previously fired brass are using it for target use, and following recommendations for new brass for hunting, but there are those who use their previously fired brass in the field too.
Might be different for those who are high volume hunters such as varmint and predator vs big game hunters. Or for those that are doing cull hunting or hog hunting, where they are taking many targets in an outing or outings vs one or two.
For the local or back 40 hunter, it may not be the same issue as for those that are spending thousands of dollars on their hunt(s). For the guided hunter investing significant dollars on their adventure experience, the cost of ammunition is the least expensive cost of the trip, and they may or may not be willing to cut costs on the one item that has the biggest influence on the actual performance of successfully killing the target animal(s)! (The ammunition; after all it is the bullet that kills, but the total sum of the components making up that cartridge is what ensures consistent performance in getting that bullet to the target animal from your rifle or firearm)
Comes down to a personal choice in the end, and only you can decide on which is best for you.
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good question , Dan .
there is a definite difference between virgin brass and properly sized fired brass . the virgin brass has a slower velocity .
as to what brand of brass the books use , I wouldn't even venture a guess . this is another reason to start low and work up while watching for pressure .
I hunt , shoot , load develop with fired brass . how virgin brass works is meaningless to me
there is a definite difference between virgin brass and properly sized fired brass . the virgin brass has a slower velocity .
as to what brand of brass the books use , I wouldn't even venture a guess . this is another reason to start low and work up while watching for pressure .
I hunt , shoot , load develop with fired brass . how virgin brass works is meaningless to me
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,402
- 6,213
Don't have a definitive answer, but I would guess they all use virgin brass just to hold the various parameters to a minimum. Since they are providing published, load-tested data for which they are accountable, they will want to keep the cartridges (as well as firing systems) as near SAAMI standards as possible.
- Nov 4, 2004
- 25,342
- 8,903
I agree with Mike. It makes sense to me that the load data tester would use new brass.
JD338
JD338
RL338
Handloader
- Mar 23, 2017
- 3,369
- 5,490
I would also agree with the new brass usage.
Darkhorse
Handloader
- Mar 14, 2014
- 822
- 185
For a big trip out west I buy a bag of virgin brass and do my load workup with about half the bag. I use once fired cases for the actual hunt. That way I test the integrity of the case and fireform it to my chamber. I do all my case prep also such as turning the case neck and deburring the flash hole. Actually I do all the cases in the lot before serious load work. This way my hunting brass is almost identical to my test brass. This method has given me good accurate loads for the hunt.
I'm sorry about errors in my typing. But my computer crashed and I had to b uy another one and it has some big problems .
I'm sorry about errors in my typing. But my computer crashed and I had to b uy another one and it has some big problems .
Lazy Bushman
Beginner
- Apr 17, 2022
- 139
- 190
I have never noticed the listing of brass. I just checked the ADI website and they make no mention of it. I would expect they would start with new brass, mostly for convenience. I wouldn’t expect them to reload many as again my assumption is that they would have pre-loaded a bunch of cartridges for time efficienc….dunno. where a manufacturer lists specific projectiles, that becomes a lot of brass. I wonder what increments they use when testing and working up loads to define their min and max loadings?
- Thread starter
- #10
Thanks for your comments, fellas. I assume they use new virgin brass but thought I would ask the question to see what others thought.
I have been instructing a beginning reloader and a novice reloader. We have had several discussions on differences in brass from different manufacturers. Also, the beginning reloader was frustrated when he tried to duplicate a load he had with new brass and got much higher velocities in Partial Full Length resized brass. He is loading for a 7mm RM and his new brass has a much shorter shoulder headspace reference measurement than his fired brass. He loaded a max load with new brass and got velocities close to book value and a good group. When he loaded the same charge in partial full length sized brass he got much higher velocities and blew his group. I had a lot of explaining to do and had to demonstrate the reference shoulder headspace differences between his new brass and fired brass.
The novice reloader was trying to figure out why he was getting pressures signs when using one manufacturer's brass. I demonstrated the differences in weight (and subsequent internal volume) between two manufacturers, brass I had on hand. Using QuickLOAD I showed how a safe charge in manufacturer's brass could be over max pressure in another manufacturer's brass.
All of these discussions made me question if load manuals use new brass.
It seems like a lot of these fine points are left out of the "how-to" section in the reloading manuals. I have learned a lot through this forum and my own experiences. However, I find it is easier to learn here than by making the mistakes.
I have been instructing a beginning reloader and a novice reloader. We have had several discussions on differences in brass from different manufacturers. Also, the beginning reloader was frustrated when he tried to duplicate a load he had with new brass and got much higher velocities in Partial Full Length resized brass. He is loading for a 7mm RM and his new brass has a much shorter shoulder headspace reference measurement than his fired brass. He loaded a max load with new brass and got velocities close to book value and a good group. When he loaded the same charge in partial full length sized brass he got much higher velocities and blew his group. I had a lot of explaining to do and had to demonstrate the reference shoulder headspace differences between his new brass and fired brass.
The novice reloader was trying to figure out why he was getting pressures signs when using one manufacturer's brass. I demonstrated the differences in weight (and subsequent internal volume) between two manufacturers, brass I had on hand. Using QuickLOAD I showed how a safe charge in manufacturer's brass could be over max pressure in another manufacturer's brass.
All of these discussions made me question if load manuals use new brass.
It seems like a lot of these fine points are left out of the "how-to" section in the reloading manuals. I have learned a lot through this forum and my own experiences. However, I find it is easier to learn here than by making the mistakes.
With Nosler, Hornady, Weatherby, Barnes, Norma and others that manufacture ammo and produce load data they are probably using their own brass (in some instances they don't). What you don't know is case volume although a rough estimate is given of case fill percentage.
So I used to be firmly in this camp. When stuff started getting harder to find, I decided to try something new see if I could get past having to fire a piece of brass before it was "useful" for me.
Now, I neck it up one caliber and then size the neck to just chamber nicely in my rifle. The false shoulder does two things
1. It aligns cartridge case in the chamber thereby getting rid of the slop from a new case
2. It reduces the amount of brass that has to flow and actually fire forms outward instead of from the rear of the case.
I am not saying you will not detect a difference, but each and everytime I have done this, it has been so marginal it's hard to read on the chronograph. Accuracy remains great from the first shot to the last shot I use on the brass.
You really don't need anything special to neck it up, say you're shooting a 270 Win, I'd just merely run the neck into a 7mm expander ball or even a 30 caliber is fine. I go up one size but in that instance they are all close enough to work fine.
Since I started doing this I don't have to burn 50 extra primers firing random loads just to fireform brass so it's ready for accuracy loading. The cases are not typically blowing out so much that you are gaining huge amounts of volume. Usually in modern rifles with good brass it's very little, what I think we see as shooters is usually the misalignment of the new brass to our chamber that doesn't allow great accuracy until after the first firing.
Anyhow, sorry to get off on a tangent, but I kinda wanted something make brass good from the start and I hated just burning through new brass to get it fired 1 time before I could start working with it... And saving 50 primers, since I guess they changed them to gold plated recently...
Caveat is some big magnums can gain a decent amount of space or older rifles with larger than normal chambers, but by and large, setting up the first shot like that will net about the same results.
Give it a shot one day while you're making new brass. Try the same charges and such in new brass and then the same charges in the new brass with the false shoulder that chamber with a slight crush fit. See what the chrono tells you.
I'll have to try this Scotty . the cost of components sure has made us thrifty . thanks for the tip .
if I'm working with a new bullet I'll do seating depth tests with virgin brass . the seating depth seems to hold true on virgin , or fired brass . then I'll have fired brass to start to work powder charge with .
if I'm working with a new bullet I'll do seating depth tests with virgin brass . the seating depth seems to hold true on virgin , or fired brass . then I'll have fired brass to start to work powder charge with .
flyingagg
Handloader
- Dec 16, 2019
- 462
- 479
That is very interesting Scotty. I might give it a try. A friend who hunts africa, develops his loads with virgin brass and then uses the same lot virgin bras to load his hunting loads. I tried that for my hunt in Africa, and it worked just fine with two rifles (both 300WBY) but all our shots were inside 380 yards.
That's a good idea as well Jim. I hope I didn't come off as my way was best, I was just saying what I have been doing to short cut the needing fired cases before I got serious.
I have never done seating depth tests prior to powder charge either which I should try. Excellent point.
You still have your 7 Mashburn Super?
Scotty , you didn't come off that way at all . I'm always happy to hear of another way , especially in todays scarce high priced components .
yes , I do have my 7mm Mashburn super . I'm impressed with it . so far the 175 ABLR's have crushed the deer I've shot .
yes , I do have my 7mm Mashburn super . I'm impressed with it . so far the 175 ABLR's have crushed the deer I've shot .
Jim, that bullet is simply amazing! I wasn't sure how much I'd like it on elk, but our group had 3 instant down and outs on 2 bulls and 1 cow with my Mashburn and the 175's this year which is pretty hard to do. I mean straight down and out. I was quite literally amazed. I keep coming back to why I mess with anything else after I see how well the 7mm and 175 work.. Who'd a guessed!
your experience sound like what I've seen . "IF" they took a step , it was only one . I shot a decent size whitetail in Kansas this year , it went straight down . it was like the rug was pulled out from under him . very impressive . I think I have a pic on my phone , there was a wad of innards on the ground behind the deer the bullet blew out . 175 ABLR . the rifle also shoots the 175 sierra's good too . I haven't hunted with the sierras yet .
That's what we saw as well with them.
I also have the 175 SGK's and 180 Lapua Scenars that are my back up's. Those other two are pretty wicked bullets as well. I know after seeing the 175 ABLR in action on elk I was literally blow away, always loved the big 7, but that bullet was a whole nother level of excellent killing.
