Bullet failures, who has had one?

[taylorce1]

I've posted similar question about this on 24hr and AR since I've had my first experience with what I would call a true bullet failure. The bullet didn't fail to kill the animal, but it surely didn't perform like the hunter or I expected. I've sure caught a lot of flak from the "If it killed the animal, how did the bullet fail?" crowd.

Here is a little background on the hunter. He is a young Army Sergent that I a befriended on a forum much like this one while serving in Iraq. He has been out of shooting and hunting for the better part of 13 years. I've been helping him since he got back with learning to reload.

He bought a brand new Horandy single stage press kit and got several hundred 100 grain Interlock BTSP to load for his .243. He has worked up a good load with his Savage 114 and this bullet. I haven't had the chance to chrony any of his loads yet, but he got them shooting better than 1" and said he would be comfortable shooting out to 300 yards with the rifle.

I offered him up a landowner voucher for pronghorn and a week ago we filled his tag. I put him with another experienced hunter and they managed to have a goat walk in on them to around 130 yards. My friend put two shots into it before it went down. The animal just locked up on the first shot and the second put it down. He put two shots broadside within an 1" of each other tight behind the shoulder right in the heart lung area.

We rolled it over to field dress it and saw that a portion of the bullet had exited the belly into the flank and could smell and see the stomach contents leaking out the wound. We weren't but 2 miles from my brothers house and decided just to load the animal up and dress it out there where we could get a lot of fresh water into it. We got it hung in an old windmill and started the process of gutting the animal we found pretty much everything destroyed heart, liver, lungs, and guts.

I cut a piece of the bullet out of the off side flank, it was the boat tail section of one of the bullets. The bullet had shed the jacket and the piece of mushroomed section I had couldn't have weighed more than 10-15 grains. I realize that boat tails separate more often than a flat base bullet but I figured a 100 grain bullet for the .243 should hold together better than that.

My friend sure was disappointed in the performance of the bullet and didn't want to use them on his up coming hunt for deer later this month. I gave him a partial box of 95 grain NBT's I had on my bench and told him he should consider buying some factory premium ammunition for his hunt. He was worried about time to develop a new load before the hunt. I told him that if it came down to the wire to use the Hornady bullets and his load but to pick his shots and try not to shoot anywhere but in the ribcage full on broadside or quartering away.

 

[FOTIS]

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[rick smith]

Tell him to trade the 243 for a 30/06. I quit using a 243 and Hornady's 6mm bullets years ago for the same reason as you saw. If he wants to keep shooting a 243, go to a Partition. Seems most 243 bullets come apart fairly easily with the exception of the Partition. The next best bullet I have used in 6mms is the now discontinued Sierra 100gr semi-spitzer. Looked almost like a round nose.Rick.

 

[Guy Miner]

Rick, that old Sierra was a good bullet. One of the most accurate I ever shot from my 6mm Rem.

taylorce1 - I read through some of the responses you got over on 24 Hour Campfire.

Can't say I've ever had a bullet "failure" - but some of the early Ballistic Tips pushed hard sure mangled up some deer for me and a buddy. We backed off the muzzle velocity, started shooting better, and Nosler toughened up the B-Tip for us. All is well now in that regard.

About the only thing I've been shooting lately that some folks might consider a "bullet failure" is the Berger VLD - yet it does exactly what the manufacturer and various gun writers claim. Not a lot of bullet to collect from the dead carcass, but very quick kills.

In the 6mm and the .243, I very much recommend two different deer bullets, both Noslers:

100 gr Nosler Partition - shoots amazingly well for me and my son. We're getting 2.5" groups at 300 yards from prone/bipod. It's enough bullet to handle those up close shots too. The front will expand violently, which is good, but the rear core keeps on punching through. Which is also good. Just bought another box of the doggone things a week or so ago.

95 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip - an outstanding bullet. Very accurate and amazingly capable on game. We've had complete penetration of a mid-size mulie out at 275 yards or so, even breaking through the off-side leg on the way out. I think he's hunting with the 95 gr Ballistic Tips again this year.

A third bullet that has worked well but may be difficult to find is the older 100 gr Nosler Solid Base. I liked these back in the 1980's, and when Nosler had a big sale on them several years ago I bought a mess of 'em. We've worked our way through most of them now though, doggone it.

There's a fellow here, posts under 6mm Remington, who has posted some great photos of his son with an elk killed by a 6mm Nosler bullet... You should check that out. Also worth looking at the posts in the 6mm section of our Bullet Tests forum here.

Guy

 

[Oldtrader3]

Taylorforce, even though your friend killed the deer with that Hornady Interlock BT-SST, I would consider that performance as a bullet failure. Cup and core BT's have a reputation for shedding their jackets in game and having the core lead go off in unpredictable directions. Your friend's deer ended up gut shot when it should not have been with the good shot that he made.

With smaller bore rifles on larger animals, It is particularly important to use premium bullets that will perform as desired. In this instance, it all worked out ok but it could have gone very wrong instead. I also would in this case be very concerned about shooting any more animals with this load. You are on the right track and I would not worry about other people's opinions who think that this bullet performance failure is ok. You and your friend are the ones who decide this, not them.

 

[SJB358]

I'm with Guy and Charlie on this. This year my son is using the 100gr PT out of his 243 at around 2925. They shoot really good and I know if a black bear comes close to my boy he has enough bullet to break him down. The premiums really make those smaller bores shine a little brighter. Again, guy hit the nail on the head with the 95gr BT. Very tough bullet and when ran around 2900-3000 it will penetrate and kill deer really well. Love that bullet alot. I bet your buddy would be very quick to get an acceptable hunting load with them too. 4350, RL19 and 22 would have him shooting MOA and around 3k pretty quick. Scotty

 

[R Flowers]

I will try to keep this short, but I do not know how. I thought about this a bit and the only true bullet failures I can think of were with Nosler bullets, believe it or not.

More years ago than I want to admit I shot a 7mm Rem Mag for about everything. I killed everything I pointed it at with 145 grain Speer cup and core bullets, never a problem long range or short. Then I decided that maybe this Nosler Partition thing was for real. I switched to 150 grain partitions and promptly was dissapointed. I shot a small CA deer at maybe 75 yards going away in the timber. He never even acted like he was hit, just left. We tracked him a ways and my dad finished him off with an 85 grain Sierra from his 240 Page Souper Pooper. The Partition had blown up like a hand grenade on the ham of this little deer. I shot the rest of those bullets at jack rabbits. (Later I tried the 160 Partitions and could not have been happier.) Yeah, I know, lousy bullet placement, but this deer could not have weighed 100 pounds soaking wet, I would have thought that bullet would have done better than that, no penetration at all.

The next time was when Nosler "improved" the 85 grain Ballistic Tip in .257 caliber. That bullet went from a wonderfull bullet for everything from deer to hogs to bears, to being useless for anything bigger than a groundhog. I shot two different coyotes one day at about 200 yards using my 25-06 and in both instances that 85 BT blew up on the shoulder and never got into the vitals AT ALL! Both dogs had to be shot again, this time in the head, to be sure. A buddy of mine shot coyotes in the ribs with the "new improved" version and literally blew them in half.

The last instance I still do not believe. The old Nosler's that were turned on a lathe and sold in the old yellow boxes had a reputation of being too hard if anything. (I have some old 85 grain bullets of .243 diameter that I could never get to expand on anything.) But having said that, my buddy tried to use some in his .257 AI one year and was terribly dissapointed. He was using some OLD Nosler 100 grain partitions and they for sure failed. I do not know how many times he shot an antelope in Wyoming with them but all they did was blow up on the surface. The animal finally went down, but when we walked up to it he was still alive and you could see his internal organs. We wound up cutting the poor things throat. We took the rest of those bullets to a friend who is a machinest and he sectioned them. The jacket and the paritition were about half the thickness of the current ones being sold.

Go figure, I never had what I consider a bullet failure with Sierra, Speer, or Hornady bullets.

Now don't get me wrong, I believe the Partition is a hell of a bullet and would still be shooting them if I did not live in central CA. But the Barnes TSX has worked so well for me here, I just shoot them everywhere now.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Nosler bullets have not been made on a screw machine (not lathe) since the early 1970's. The only bullet failure that I ever had with a Partition was a screw machine jacket made in the early 1970's it shed the front core, the petals of the jacket fractured and the back half went lengthwise through a Pronghorn. I shot the animal again through the lungs and the bullet worked perfectly. This was in 1974! sometimes the gliding metal would get brittle on a screw machine from work hardening but that was a while ago!

Since that one bullet, I have not had a single bullet failure with a Partition in about 60 deer and 6 elk, in nearly 40 years! I doubt that many of the people on this forum can remember or have used the Partitions, Solid Based or early Ballistic Tip Nosler bullets that you speak of? I can hardly remember using them myself. Plus, I don't usually use Ballistic Tips to shoot shoulder joints, not a good use of that bullet.

 

[jimbires]

when my son started to hunt I bought him a 243 . I had a bunch of headaches with different bullets in it . I never recovered anything much more then slivers to be able to see what was going on , but the wounds were ugly . I used the 100 gr hornady with I'd say better , but poor results . I used the Speer hot core 105's these were absolutely the worst I tried . it looked like it was shot with bird shot after I found the deer . I'd have to look in my cabinet to be able to say what all bullets I tried . to make a long story short I bought a box of 100 grain partitions and I have never even thought of trying a different bullet for deer hunting . using the partitions I never had to track another deer for him . most fell right there , and all fell within sight . the wound looks like a normal kill shot from a much larger rifle . smallish going in and a blown out exit hole . my son was a shoulder shooter . he was always hitting the deer right on the front shoulder . I didn't want to tell him to aim behind the shoulder because he might move back to far and into the guts , so I just kept trying different bullets until I found one that worked .

I have been laughed at too by the keyboard know it alls about bullet failure . I think that the guys are so brainwashed , by advertising ,that they fail to question anything that is right in front of their eyes . all they know is they shot the animal and it died , Hmmmm yep , the bullet worked . my worst beatings on the forums have been from me criticizing Barnes bullets . the barnes users sure don't like any trash talk about their bullets . I have pics of a recovered barnes bullet, in the bullet testing forum here , 7mm / 160 TSX . I have never had a one shot kill with the TSX's . I have never had bloodshot meat with the TSX's , I can eat right to the bullet hole . pencil hole in and out . I just don't see any damage from them .they look like they were shot with an arrow using a target point . the third animal I recovered a bullet . I think it tells the tale about my TSX problem . Jim


EDIT : tell your friend to try federal fusion factory ammo if he doesn't have time to work up another load for his upcoming hunt . I have a friend that uses these in his 243 and he says they are very accurate, and they work great on whitetails . Jim

 

[SJB358]

Great write up Jim. If I have said it once, I have said it a 100X's. The PT is really a great bullet that really can't "fail"... In that I mean when used within its design parameters, it will expand like crazy cause of that soft frontal area and still continue to drive deep cause of the shank. Now, I know there are super magnums that may have ruptured the PT's or super long shots where the speed fell below the 1800FPS mark where the bullet didn't expand. Those are outside of the 95% that most cartridges and hunters are shooting, my opinion. If I hunted and shot really long range, I would probably like the AB's and other bullets much more, but I don't, so again, the PT's are the backbone of my bullets for handloading. I haven't ran across a PT that hasn't shot the way I wanted it too.

I really don't have any bullet failures to add to this post. The closest thing to a bullet failure was the old X bullet in the 160gr weight in my 7RM. It did a great job on moose and caribou, but it just kinda zipped through deer without opening much. Compared to a 140gr PT, it was way too tough and didn't cause the kinda disruption I was used to. Once I switched back to 140 PT's, deer began to drop at the shot again. I know there are a ton of great bullets, but once I start putting bullets into jugs on a consistent basis, this has really given me the confidence to make decent calls on what a bullet is going to do. I know it isn't scientific, but it does give a decent test.. Much better than just guessing at what it is doing...

My boy is using 100gr PT's this year in his 243. Looking forward to him laying a few deer low with them. I don't expect to recover many. I used the 95gr PT for a bit and that bullet was just as deadly. Heck, the 95gr BT is a great one too. Scotty

 

[jimbires]

Scotty , if I remember right the 243 and 100 grain partitions were very easy to get accuracy from . I used IMR7828 , but I would now use the short cut since it is on the market . I have nothing but confidence in your son hunting with the partitions , he will have no problems at all . be sure to let us know how he does . I like to see you guys have your kids out hunting . those are some of my best memories with my Travis . Jim

 

[Oldtrader3]

I have only killed maybe 5 deer with the .243 and all were with the 95 gr Partition and the 85 gr Partition which I used because I could drive them at 3200+ fps. None of these Partitions ever failed to kill a deer and most did it DRT! They all also exited the deer and were not recovered.

Scotty, you have a box of 85 gr Partitions to try. Try them, they will surprise you as to how easily they kill deer.

 

[SJB358]

I have only killed maybe 5 deer with the .243 and all were with the 95 gr Partition and the 85 gr Partition which I used because I could drive them at 3200+ fps. None of these Partitions ever failed to kill a deer and most did it DRT! They all also exited the deer and were not recovered.

Scotty, you have a box of 85 gr Partitions to try. Try them, they will surprise you as to how easily they kill deer.

I was wanting to get those 85's out Charlie, but do to other work with my other rifles I haven't messed with his 243 as much as I wanted to. I think I am going to try to load some of the BT's you sent along for Winter time coyotes. Those should work out excellent in that department. I will load up a bunch of the PT's for the Fall for him shortly and I imagine it will get some hunting in.

Scotty , if I remember right the 243 and 100 grain partitions were very easy to get accuracy from . I used IMR7828 , but I would now use the short cut since it is on the market . I have nothing but confidence in your son hunting with the partitions , he will have no problems at all . be sure to let us know how he does . I like to see you guys have your kids out hunting . those are some of my best memories with my Travis . Jim

I am running 44gr's of RL19 (2925) right now with the 100gr PT. I don't have my last target I shot with this load after the trigger was tuned up, but it was about 3/4" and was pretty easy to bang the 300 yard steel with a 200 yard zero. I could push them a little further I think, but right now, I am happy with this load.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I was shooting those 80 grain Nosler BT bullets in my Browning Micro Medalion with a load 45.0 grains of IMR 4350 and W-W cases. I never chrono'ed the load and sold the rifle before I bought the chrono. However that load was supposed to be at about 3250 fps MV and had super accuracy when using the 80 grain BT's. That load would shoot close to one inch at 300 yards in my rifle on a good day.

The load really smoked coyotes that I shot with it and they did not go far after being hit, even when shot at 400 yards in the Utah desert. Those bullets should shoot great for you. In fact the 80 grain Federal blue box bullets also shot great in my rifle and were nearly as accurate as my best handloads.

 

[caribouhunter]

i had a bad experience with 180 gr corelokt ultra.
when remington quit offering the 180 gr Partition as factory load for my 300 ultra. i contacted them to ask why they did. their answer, we came up with something even better, the 180 gr corelokt ultra... i knew it was b.s. but i was not into reloading at the time so i gave them a try.
accuracy was as good as with the Partition, and better than the 180 scirocco. but the first game i shot them at was a young whitetail buck (155 pound dressed). i didn't have time to range the shot, but estimated just shy of 300 yard, and i guess i was close because bullet went right where intended. fortunately the deer was in the middle of a field about 800 yard from closest bush.
after the shot, came the report of a solid hit, i was aiming high on the shoulder and hit right in the middle of it. the deer left at full throttle in the direction of the bush, and i lost sight of him
behind a hill.so i went to where he was standing and found the tracks he made when he started running. but found no blood, my buddies arrived at dark, and we searched for blood in vain.
we finally found the buck piled up dead 600 yard further. there was not even blood on is coat. only a small entry hole on is shoulder. when we skinned him the shoulder was red/black jelly
as expected. but only a small fragment of bullet made it thru the ribcage, piercing only 1 lung.

never used that bullet again. if a 180 grainer did this at impact velocity close to a 30-06 @ 100 yard and on small deer, better switch to something else.
which i did by starting reloading the 200 Partition, and AccuBond :twisted:

 

[Guy Miner]

Good reason caribou hunter.

And my compliments to you as a hunter. Tracking down that deer, 600 yards away with no blood trail is quite an accomplishment.

 

[caribouhunter]

In fact i have no merit we found it because it was still in the field.
Had he made it to the wood, we would most probably have lost him :?
Sorry, if that part was not clear.

 

[Guy Miner]

Big field... I'm still impressed. Some guys I know will hardly even try to track wounded game.

And I'm still convinced that you have one heck of a good reason to go to the Noslers. I tried a .300 RUM for a while - in the CDL format it was just too tough for me to get the field accuracy I wanted. The rifle was good, the cartridge was good, the shooter was having one heck of a time dealing with the blast & recoil. Probably should have put a brake on it, or a heavier barrel, but I sold it off. A young Marine has it now and I hear he's decorating his house with kills from it... :grin:

Had some Remington factory ammo, with 200 gr Nosler Partitions - and that stuff clocked just a tad under 3200 fps! :shock: Remington discontinued that ammo, but from what I saw at the range and on my chronograph, it should have stayed a standard factory load.

Guy

 

[caribouhunter]

that was at my brother's place in Manitoba. A lot more field than bush over there :lol:
My rifle has a break, I shoot my friend's unbreaked one sometimes with 150 and 165 bullets.
But I would certainly not be comfortable shooting the 200 grainers.
In fact my rum with the 200's kick noticeably more, even with the break, than my 7 wsm pushing
150 @ 3100 without break.
I bought the 7wsm because it gives me about the same trajectory without the muzzle blast.
I now use the 300 only for moose, if I expect long distance shots

 

[caribouhunter]

oh man! he ran 600 FEET,not YARDS sorry about that!
i can see why you were impressed