"By the book" in search of a "cloverleaf"

[cloverleaf]

Way to busy with work this summer. Its taken me 6months to reload a box of shells and Ive only shot a couple of ti9mes this summer. So, true confessions- my only "cloverleaf" (Three bullet holes touching) with the 250 Savage appears to have been an anomaly. It actually happened years and hundreds of rounds ago. Last spring I decided to get serious about shooting another as my shoulders are failing and the nerve damage in my hands isn't going to get better as I get older...I better get with it!

So I Grab a copy of the Nosler manual and see that 32.5 grains of VHT N150 is the most accurate load tested with the 100 Gr. BT. I must be serious- that stuff is expensive! So I take some 3x fired cases, trim them to max length, anneal them, (see my post here on that experiment-https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39600 ) buy a flash hole uniformer- and use that, chamfer necks inside and out, full length re-size and use a Lee hand primer to seat some CCI 200 large rifle primers.

I did what I could to verify my scale, against another cheap Gram scale. It came out accurate to a tenth of a grain so I cant be to far off. All charges were weighed and then 100 gr. BT's seated on top.

As an experiment I loaded 5 rounds to the book recommended length 2.515. (Jeepers that seems short!) another 5 rounds to 2.540 as an "in-between", and the remaining 10 rounds in the box to a COAL of 2.614, because that was "just off the lands" per Dads measurements with a sharpie and trial and error years ago.

Pretty aint they....


2.515- I shot all these once the first couple were strung horizontally. Operator error

2.540- Looks like more operator error maybe .....

and then 2.618- on the upper left. Its always that last shot....:roll: :twisted: those squares are about 1/2 inch I would have been happy with a 1/2 inch group.

What say you? I've shot as good groups with 38 Gr. of 4350. What else would you try?

(Sorry - I thought I had my pics rotated)

 

[cloverleaf]

???? CL

 

[gerry]

Just seeing this now Troy. I would be inclined to try your load just off the lands with both powders again to see if they come together a bit more. I know I was pretty rusty this spring after not shooting much during the winter :lol: I'm not sure what your max is but if you can go higher safely I would be inclined to try that as well. How is the bedding on the rifle?

 

[longrangehunter]

Hi Troy,

I remember years ago, 2006 maybe, I had a Ruger 257 Roberts that I tried everything I could do to it other then a new barrel and have the action worked over to get it too shoot........ It just was going to do any better the 1" groups as I remember?

It takes a lot of things coming together to pull off the cloverleaf bugholes you're looking to produce! Trust me, I've spent thousands of dollars to help make that happen. Even today using a AI AT 7.62 NATO wearing a Nightforce ATACR 7-35x56 scope set at 25x aiming at the right edge of the red triangle with a DOT in the center of the scope so I'm aiming at the smallest portion of the target stuff happens when the trigger is pulled....... or do I say squeezed?

That's why knowing when the gun went off knowing where the reticle was at the time? Even in a 17.5 lbs rifle with a brake!

It's tough to pull that off even with a gun put together well. We've all chased it for sure, all you can do is retest and see if what you do makes the groups shrink or not? Sometimes it's the guns fault or our own mistakes in our shooting form. My eyesight isn't what it used to be, lucky for me I just have to see a piece of steel to hit that's 1.5 MOA or larger, sometimes smaller which gets hards on a swinger.

Take this as a grain of salt, try to just enjoy your time at the range...... We're getting older, stiff fingers, poor eyesight, sore muscles, it's all tricky to make what you seek happen with what you're working with?

Maybe shooting those Rams and Chickens would be fun to do, and/or pound some steel instead which is easier IMO.

Sorry I can't be more help. Sometimes the magic happens and sometimes it's just like chasing a unicorn?

Good luck Troy, and if you hit the mark you're after you've done well my friend!

Take care CL!

 

[longrangehunter]

Sorry I had to edit some wrong info I looked up!

Sierra has 34.0 of H335 listed as their accuracy load, and 35.3 of IMR-4064 as their Hunting load using their 100 grain bullets. listed @ 2,700, and 3,000 fps for each load.

Using their 117 gr bullets they list IMR-4064 again under their Hunting load at their max using 33.4 grains of IMR-4064 going 2,700 fps. Their accuracy load uses 31.4 of IMR-4895 running 2,600 fps.

Maybe this would be worth a try?

 

[SJB358]

Sorry I had to edit some wrong info I looked up!

Sierra has 34.0 of H335 listed as their accuracy load, and 35.3 of IMR-4064 as their Hunting load using their 100 grain bullets. listed @ 2,700, and 3,000 fps for each load.

Using their 117 gr bullets they list IMR-4064 again under their Hunting load at their max using 33.4 grains of IMR-4064 going 2,700 fps. Their accuracy load uses 31.4 of IMR-4895 running 2,600 fps.

Maybe this would be worth a try?

Those Sierra loads are good ones to try. Usually they are quite good and let’s you know the rifle is doing what it’s supposed to.

 

[gerry]

I would also be inclined to take a look at Sierra bullets 100 gr or less and look at some Speer bullets too.

 

[cloverleaf]

Thanks Guys- this was a fun project - even if it took me 6 months! Thanks for the advice too. If I actually get a chance to burn up that pound of powder I will consider myself lucky! Incidentally, you both hit on some things I've already confirmed. The rifle likes 38 gr of 4350 under a 100 Gr. BT. Also, I haven't tried Sierra's but the most consistently accurate (I shoot the best) are Hornady 75 Gr V-Max's over 40 Gr's of 4350. Also, on the advice of "John" from the Gunstop here in the Metro I tried 35 grains of 4064. Its hot, fast and able to put three in an inch If I can hold still and its cold enough. Nice deer load come November.

With this Viht load, As you note closer to the lands seems to work better. It seems like a long way out compared to the book and I did note that the bolt lift was a little "stiff". Does the extra space in the case from bullets seated further out result in some weird pressure issues? CL

 

[Darkhorse]

CL, I would look to my setup before trying anything new. Whatever you use, sandbags, front adjustable rest, whatever, it must be rock solid.
Once you get the height worked out for the front rest, on the stock not the barrel, then partially fill a sandbag for the rear and leave it a little loose. When you get into the gun adjust your crosshair height by sliding the rear bag back or forth on the buttstock.
When everything is as solid as you can make it, with an unloaded gun take careful aim and squeeze off a dry fire. Without moving the rifle look where the crosshairs are now. They will have moved off target, this is where your bullet would have hit.
Now go back and work on your setup some more until you can squeeze off a shot and the crosshairs never move.
Until you get this worked out you will never shoot your best groups.
DH

 

[cloverleaf]

Finished off the box of ammo referenced in the post above. Seems that the longer overall length shot better as I moved the bullet out. Given that my rifle is pillared and bedded, and I can shoot inch groups with the right load, I'm gonna call the "flyers" in the two groups below "operator error". As I noted above my other go to loads (38 gr 4350 and 35 gr 4064) can do as well, but now I have a pound of Vit N150 and a reasonable load to go with it, not a cloverleaf, but not a bad one. CL



and thanks for the advice DH! CL

 

[Blkram]

You can also try Re-15 and 19 with 100 gr bullets.

 

[1100 Remington Man]

I think your last groups are looking better and should work for you.
Good Luck Hunting

 

[lhsako]

CL, I would look to my setup before trying anything new. Whatever you use, sandbags, front adjustable rest, whatever, it must be rock solid.
Once you get the height worked out for the front rest, on the stock not the barrel, then partially fill a sandbag for the rear and leave it a little loose. When you get into the gun adjust your crosshair height by sliding the rear bag back or forth on the buttstock.
When everything is as solid as you can make it, with an unloaded gun take careful aim and squeeze off a dry fire. Without moving the rifle look where the crosshairs are now. They will have moved off target, this is where your bullet would have hit.
Now go back and work on your setup some more until you can squeeze off a shot and the crosshairs never move.
Until you get this worked out you will never shoot your best groups.
DH

absolutely true !!!!!! and a big pain in the a**