Case H2O Capacities

[Bonz]

Thanks guys, now to turn in my homework!
200.5 gr fired case as it comes out of the rifle
277.7 gr weight filled to meniscus brim w/de-oxygenated H2O

77.2 gr H2O capacity.

I really appreciate the assist with this! Look forward to the numbers with IMR4064, XBR8208 and TAC but I understand if it's already been too much work. I can use the numbers you already provided as a relative starting point.

Edit: Really seeing how "antiquated" my powder choices are, per se, when it comes to making the AI all it can be.

Would you run CFE223 as well?

 

[DrMike]

Cartridge : .35 Whelen Ack. Imp.
Bullet : .358, 200, Barnes 'TTSX' 35832
Useable Case Capaci: 67.615 grain H2O = 4.390 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.390 inch = 86.11 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Ramshot TAC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   77    51.44   2304    2356   30503   5764     85.8    1.474
-18.0   78    52.73   2358    2470   32392   5950     87.1    1.437
-16.0   80    54.01   2413    2586   34403   6133     88.2    1.402
-14.0   82    55.30   2468    2705   36543   6312     89.3    1.367
-12.0   84    56.58   2523    2826   38822   6487     90.4    1.334
-10.0   86    57.87   2578    2951   41248   6657     91.4    1.301
-08.0   88    59.16   2633    3078   43833   6823     92.4    1.269
-06.0   90    60.44   2688    3208   46588   6983     93.3    1.235
-04.0   92    61.73   2743    3341   49526   7136     94.2    1.201  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   94    63.01   2798    3476   52661   7283     95.0    1.169  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   96    64.30   2853    3614   56009   7423     95.7    1.137  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   98    65.59   2908    3755   59588   7555     96.4    1.107  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  100    66.87   2963    3898   63417   7679     97.0    1.077  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  101    68.16   3018    4044   67518   7794     97.6    1.049  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  103    69.44   3072    4192   71917   7900     98.1    1.021  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  105    70.73   3127    4343   76641   7996     98.6    0.995  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 96 64.30 2985 3958 65671 7459 99.3 1.062 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 96 64.30 2684 3199 46707 7088 89.0 1.234

Cartridge : .35 Whelen Ack. Imp.
Bullet : .358, 200, Barnes 'TTSX' 35832
Useable Case Capaci: 67.615 grain H2O = 4.390 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.390 inch = 86.11 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon CFE223

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   77    53.52   2375    2506   29730   6267     89.9    1.451
-18.0   79    54.86   2433    2629   31670   6463     91.1    1.415
-16.0   81    56.20   2491    2756   33744   6652     92.3    1.379
-14.0   83    57.53   2549    2885   35963   6834     93.4    1.344
-12.0   85    58.87   2607    3018   38339   7008     94.4    1.310
-10.0   87    60.21   2665    3154   40884   7173     95.3    1.277
-08.0   89    61.55   2723    3293   43613   7330     96.2    1.245
-06.0   91    62.89   2781    3434   46541   7476     96.9    1.211
-04.0   92    64.22   2839    3579   49686   7611     97.6    1.176  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   94    65.56   2897    3726   53069   7735     98.2    1.143  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   96    66.90   2954    3876   56711   7847     98.8    1.110  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   98    68.24   3012    4028   60639   7946     99.2    1.079  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  100    69.58   3069    4183   64882   8032     99.5    1.049  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  102    70.91   3126    4340   69461   8103     99.8    1.019  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  104    72.25   3183    4499   74435   8160     99.9    0.991  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  106    73.59   3239    4660   79827   8202    100.0    0.963  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 96 66.90 3086 4228 68552 7592 100.0 1.032 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 96 66.90 2772 3413 46276 7679 93.1 1.212

Cartridge : .35 Whelen Ack. Imp.
Bullet : .358, 200, Barnes 'TTSX' 35832
Useable Case Capaci: 67.615 grain H2O = 4.390 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.390 inch = 86.11 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : IMR 4064

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   84    49.28   2321    2393   30427   5771     89.3    1.465
-18.0   86    50.51   2375    2506   32365   5946     90.4    1.429
-16.0   88    51.74   2430    2621   34411   6117     91.4    1.394
-14.0   90    52.98   2484    2740   36566   6283     92.5    1.360
-12.0   92    54.21   2538    2861   38847   6444     93.4    1.326
-10.0   94    55.44   2592    2984   41274   6598     94.3    1.294
-08.0   96    56.67   2646    3110   43861   6746     95.1    1.263
-06.0   98    57.90   2700    3238   46617   6887     95.9    1.229
-04.0  100    59.14   2754    3368   49556   7020     96.6    1.196  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  103    60.37   2808    3501   52692   7146     97.3    1.164  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  105    61.60   2861    3636   56039   7262     97.8    1.133  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  107    62.83   2915    3773   59616   7370     98.3    1.103  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  109    64.06   2968    3912   63441   7468     98.8    1.074  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  111    65.30   3021    4054   67537   7556     99.2    1.046  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  113    66.53   3074    4197   71926   7634     99.5    1.019  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  115    67.76   3127    4342   76637   7700     99.7    0.992  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 105 61.60 2984 3953 66036 7135 100.0 1.059 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 105 61.60 2698 3233 46360 7060 92.1 1.229

Cartridge : .35 Whelen Ack. Imp.
Bullet : .358, 200, Barnes 'TTSX' 35832
Useable Case Capaci: 67.615 grain H2O = 4.390 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.390 inch = 86.11 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : IMR 8208 XBR

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   78    48.32   2360    2474   31670   5863     92.7    1.446
-18.0   79    49.53   2413    2586   33591   6026     93.6    1.411
-16.0   81    50.74   2466    2701   35628   6184     94.5    1.377
-14.0   83    51.94   2519    2817   37788   6336     95.3    1.344
-12.0   85    53.15   2571    2936   40079   6482     96.1    1.312
-10.0   87    54.36   2624    3057   42507   6621     96.8    1.281
-08.0   89    55.57   2676    3179   45082   6752     97.4    1.250
-06.0   91    56.78   2727    3303   47813   6876     98.0    1.217
-04.0   93    57.98   2779    3429   50711   6992     98.5    1.185  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0   95    59.19   2830    3557   53788   7098     98.9    1.155  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   97    60.40   2881    3686   57055   7196     99.3    1.125  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0   99    61.61   2931    3816   60526   7285     99.6    1.097  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  101    62.82   2982    3948   64218   7363     99.8    1.069  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  103    64.02   3031    4081   68146   7432     99.9    1.043  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  105    65.23   3081    4215   72330   7490    100.0    1.017  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  107    66.44   3130    4351   76791   7538    100.0    0.993  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 97 60.40 2987 3964 66880 6952 100.0 1.055 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 97 60.40 2731 3313 47481 7134 94.9 1.217

Cartridge : .35 Whelen Ack. Imp.
Bullet : .358, 200, Barnes 'TTSX' 35832
Useable Case Capaci: 67.615 grain H2O = 4.390 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.390 inch = 86.11 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 57200 psi, or 394 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 112 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-17                 108.1     70.7     4.58    3024    98.9    57200    8467   1.091  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550                    109.9     70.0     4.54    2974    97.1    57200    8226   1.109  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                       107.1     70.6     4.58    2960    94.1    57200    8191   1.105  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                     107.1     70.6     4.58    2960    94.1    57200    8191   1.105  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350                      112.0     69.8     4.52    2946    96.9    55034    8089   1.131  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old                      104.9     66.1     4.28    2940    99.2    57200    7724   1.127  ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP                          112.0     69.1     4.47    2939    96.8    55007    8059   1.123  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                     112.0     72.1     4.67    2931    94.5    55119    8175   1.121  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064                      105.1     64.1     4.15    2927   100.0    57200    7295   1.147  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520                       97.3     63.9     4.14    2920    99.9    57200    7290   1.131  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380                       103.6     66.0     4.28    2913    96.7    57200    7745   1.125  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495                       98.9     60.3     3.91    2912   100.0    57200    6984   1.153  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204                          111.0     71.5     4.63    2900    90.8    57200    7876   1.109  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460                       92.6     62.1     4.03    2874    99.7    57200    7073   1.143  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC                       104.7     66.2     4.29    2855    93.1    57200    7472   1.132  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                112.0     67.5     4.38    2831    97.6    50400    7429   1.166  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780             112.0     73.6     4.77    2769    88.6    51715    7383   1.164  ! Near Maximum !

 

[truck driver]

Howard that looks better(H2O),I might splurge and pick up a box of 200gr ttsx to see what it will do in my 35 AI. What brand of brass are you using?

 

[Bonz]

That is awesome, DrMike. Really appreciate the info! Regardless, CFE223 looks like a great niche powder for the 35 AI.

Rodger, I shoot Remington 35 Whelen headstamped bulk brass. Fireforming consists of a moderate charge of a powder I want to use up and the 200 grain Speer TMJ .357 bullet. Makes for good range practice from the bench, off-hand and other positions in between, and cases are good to go.

Is QL taking into account each individual bullet (200 TTSX vs 200 AccuBond) or just a 200 grain bullet in general as far as pressure tendencies? I believe QL is factoring in bullet length for case capacity, however AB's and TTSX's are different in terms of bearing surface area and material that comprises the bearing surface.

 

[DrMike]

QL calculations are made dependent upon unique parameters of each individual bullet.

 

[truck driver]

It's for a specific bullet and is NOT interchangeable each bullet is different and causes different pressure readings. The old generic powder charges we use to see in the Lyman manuals are a thing of the past, Welcome to the 21 Century it has been a new learning process for me also and these guys are pushing the 22nd Century when it comes to load development.

 

[Wyo7200]

hate to be repetitive, but wanted to add some amplifying info- QL takes in account the shape of the bullets tail end and does some fancy arithmetic to displace the volume of the bullet tail from the volume of the case, depending on how how far it's seated in the case.

I've measured all the bullets I have on hand and QL (or my bullets) are pretty close with the exception of the amax. QL was off by a full .10 oal.

 

[Bonz]

Thanks for the education in all things QL. Did some case prep this morning, hope to load some in the next few days. Will let you guys know velocity, accuracy, any pressure signs, etc when I shoot in the next week or two, looking forward to this.

 

[truck driver]

Howard, hold on to your hat because it's just getting started and don't forget the pictures.

 

[Bonz]

I am excited as well, been pretty much doing the same thing for 23 years of reloading with customary powders and methods. Always felt I was on the leading edge of learning new stuff, so this a great leap!

Ok, for the 200 TTSX I loaded these rounds:
64/TAC
60.5/XBR8208
68/RL17

Seated to 3.390"with CCI 250 primer in RP 35 Whelen fire formed brass. -Have used CCI250's for the cartridge exclusively, could honestly tell no difference in velocity, SD, ES versus standard primers, but have stayed with them for the potential benefit in cold weather in the field.

Kind of excited to see the RL17 results. I could easily get more powder in the case under the bullet without undue compression.

Overall, I expect to see where I am in case pressure signs/extraction and relative velocity to already developed/established loads. Yee-Haw!

Edit: On further thinking... Barnes #4 shows TAC as being a "super powder" in the 350 Rem Mag, which I think of as the equivalent to the standard 35 Whelen for all intents and purposes. With that said, QL data doesn't bear that out in relation to TAC with the 35 AI. It's all "theoretical" until the real shooting is done, however what thought do you guys have on that?

 

[truck driver]

Howard, I wouldn't get tied up with comparing the 350 Rem mag to the Whelen since they are both different case designs.

 

[Bonz]

Here's a thought... The 350 Rem Mag and standard Whelen are within a grain of H2O capacity of eachother +/-. Let's run the QL for both cartridges with TAC using a 72 grain H2O case capacity and the same 200 TTSX bullet, SAMMI OAL being used for both.

The cases definitely are different. My take on it from studying/reading about the two cartridges over the years, they have more similarities than differences when it comes to loading with the same powders and similar charge weights to attain similar results.

For the sake of knowledge, would it be possible to do a QL comparison of the two, as shared above?

 

[DrMike]

The 35 Whelen and the 250 RM are ballistic twins with light for calibre bullets. With 200 grain bullets, they are essentially identical in velocities.

 

[Bonz]

Thanks DrMike for the thought. I would add they are more or less ballistic twins with any bullet weight when comparing load data and powders/charge weight from manuals over time. I suspect QL wouldn't prove much different.

 

[Bonz]

You guys, particularly DrMike with the QL numbers have been very gracious and welcoming to me. Looks like I will have a window to get to the range this week, is it appropriate to ask for a couple additional QL scenarios?

The background on this request is I made a goal to harvest an elk with each practical bullet weight in my 35 AI. So far, I have been successful with the 200 gr X (3 elk), 225 gr X (1 elk) 250 gr X (2 elk), 200 TTSX (2 elk) and the Hornady 250 gr SP has popped a couple elk as well.

Years ago, I stocked up on the 225 gr "Buckskin 35 Whelen" ballistic tips. Woked up some loads but never fired one in anger although they were my "bullet choice of the year" for a season at one point in my quest to use different bullets on elk.

I had a fit of nostalgia today when in the reloading room, and kindled the desire to use the 225 Ballistic tip this season. As well, it is a Nosler forum and the potential I see with RL17 from the QL numbers for 200 TTSX has me interested. A quick measurement has the 200 TTSX and 225 BT essentially the same length and will allow plenty of room in the case for a slower powder.

With the 250 Hornady having been a good performer, curious how that works with RL17 as well.

Thanks in advance for anything you are able to help with! Will report back with results on all bullets we have been talking about for the collective.

 

[DrMike]

Cartridge : .35 Whelen Ack. Imp.
Bullet : .358, 225, Nosler BalTip 35225
Useable Case Capaci: 66.498 grain H2O = 4.318 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.390 inch = 86.11 mm
Barrel Length : 25.0 inch = 635.0 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-17

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   85    54.64   2268    2570   28601   6690     90.5    1.553
-18.0   87    56.01   2328    2707   30585   6911     91.9    1.511
-16.0   89    57.37   2388    2849   32715   7122     93.2    1.470
-14.0   91    58.74   2448    2994   35006   7322     94.5    1.430
-12.0   93    60.10   2508    3144   37472   7509     95.6    1.388
-10.0   96    61.47   2569    3297   40128   7683     96.5    1.345
-08.0   98    62.84   2629    3454   42994   7842     97.4    1.303
-06.0  100    64.20   2690    3615   46091   7985     98.2    1.263
-04.0  102    65.57   2750    3779   49440   8112     98.8    1.223  ! Near Maximum !
-02.0  104    66.93   2810    3946   53070   8220     99.3    1.185  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  106    68.30   2870    4116   57011   8310     99.6    1.149  ! Near Maximum !
+02.0  108    69.67   2930    4289   61294   8379     99.9    1.113  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  110    71.03   2989    4464   65964   8429    100.0    1.079  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0  113    72.40   3048    4642   71064   8461    100.0    1.046  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  115    73.76   3107    4823   76649   8487    100.0    1.014  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  117    75.13   3165    5005   82780   8510    100.0    0.983  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 106 68.30 3003 4507 69306 7903 100.0 1.063 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 106 68.30 2675 3574 46319 8241 94.3 1.262

 

[SJB358]

Wow, RL17 and the 225 look really danger fast. Those are 338 Win Mag speeds plus some.

Very cool. Hope you do the load work. That would be a thumper.

 

[Bonz]

Yes, it will be a thumper x 2 if the data holds up! Early on I used H4350 under the 225 grain ballistic tips and got right at 2700 fps (with room to go up) however I had an aversion to heavily compressed charges, and was getting better velocities with powders like IMR4064. IMR4320, Varget. I have gotten past my aversion to compressed charges for the most part, and may have left a bit of velocity on the table so that has kindled my interest as well. I settled on IMR4064 at 2750 fps.

Loaded up the first rounds with the 225 ballistic tip and RL 17 later last night. Will keep you all posted.

FWIW , 3.390" OAL is what my magazine can digest, so that is what they are seated at. With that said, the bullet is sitting a good bit further from the lands with the BT vs the TTSX. Accuracy was always good with BT's, so looking forward to seeing what they will do!

 

[truck driver]

Howard, I loaded up some 225gr AB with RL17 from a QL that Dewey ran for me and they are waiting for a range session also. With 67grs I only had .20" left in the case neck to seat a bullet before compressing the load and almost didn't seat a bullet in the case since I'm not fond of compressed loads do to reading about the ill effects of compressed loads from years ago.

 

[SJB358]

I wouldn't worry too much about compressing those powders.

Very interested in how you guys make out with the loads. RL17 is working real well for another buddy in his 35 Whelen. Can't see it not working better in the Ackley.