Don’t Cheap Out on rings and Bases

Joec7651

Joec7651

Handloader
Apr 7, 2019
987
1,356
I have a Vanguard Sporter in 270 Win that I bought new a few months ago. Hasn’t been fired yet. I also have a couple new Fullfield II’s, and 3 new Nikons on the shelf. I went with a new Burris 4.5x14x42.

Well, I’m ashamed to say I didn’t go with my old stand by Talleys. I went cheap for no good reason I can recall. Anyway the cheap rings didn’t allow me enough elevation to bore sight the rifle. I can however say that model 700 rings are NOT Vanguard rings. The rear ring for the Vanguard is taller than rings for a 700. And to beat all, I still didn’t go with Talley’s, I ordered DNZ Game Reaper one piece base and rings specifically for the Vanguard. They look to be really rugged, and reviews have been good. Soooooo, when the DNZ’s get here I’ll put the glass back on, bore sight again, and get the zero established

NEVER skimp on rings. Buy quality to begin with, you wont regret it.
 
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Forgive my ignorance here. But what is it about cheap rings that doesn't let you bore sight? Are they just too tall, and you can't adjust the scope to compensate? Being too tall isn't a function of being cheap, you could have expensive rings that are too tall. I'm trying to understand what you're saying here.
 
There’s nothing to apologize for, I thought I was losing my mind too when I tried bore sighting it. The Monstrum rings seemed sturdy enough, but their tolerances are way too lax. People shouldn’t run into this with model specific rings. As always, saving a few dollars cost me almost double.

The rear ring was short for the Vanguard(too low). The rear ring measured .022” shorter than the measurements Talley gives for their Vanguard rings. That’s a good bit of difference when both are medium height rings. They said that .022” less ring height would translate to 20 MOA less elevation adjustment. The Burris scope elevation turret bottomed out, the laser was still 5” low at 50 yards with no elevation adjustment remaining. That’s why Talley, DNZ, and Warne make rings specifically for the Vanguard. I called both Talley and DNZ to make sure I was on the right track. Both said 700 rings mount fine on the Vanguard but will be shorter than rings for the Weatherby. DNZ said 20 MOA 700 rings would work fine but for 0 MOA rings I’d need rings and bases designed specifically for the Howa 1500, and Vanguard.
 
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Wow. I've never run into a situation that called for specific rings for a specific model. I usually just use a Weaver or Picatinny base and then the appropriate height rings for the scope. I don't usually go cheap-cheap, but usually a Weaver 4-screw ring (or something similar, like Warne) works for me. Never used the Monstrum stuff.
 
My choice is a good solid picatinny rail with the best rings that I can find. My rings of choice were the TPS, but the company went out of business. Just hoping that someone picks up the design.
 
who knows with weatherby? Any correct action I have ever delt with, and that is dozens of models and makes from single shots and break actions, to repeaters and bolt actions even semi autos, Use a base made for them, but the rings are always identical front and back! If you need bastard ring heights to zero a scope, it is either
1) In your action!
2) in the base

And if you are using different height rings from front to back, cheap or expensive, I would consider it mickey moused. My only difference in ring height came with no bases and a barrel and receiver machined for direct mount dedicated rings such as the Ruger rings! I've also shot short and long-range benchrest for years, and trust me a 15 dollar weaver mount with seeking rings will do anything any ring and base setup I have ever used.

I am no fan of laser bore sighting either, and would never judge it as correct till I shot the setup on paper.

Good Luck finding your problem, but I would do more checking before I threw more money at it!
 
There are manufactures that list the 700 and Vanguard using the same base/ring combo. They are not the same , an elevation issue will rear it’s head.
 
I agree, I’ve not seen it until now. When I called Talley and DNZ they did say each thousandth of an inch higher or lower equals roughly 1 MOA. It was the first time trying them, there won’t be a second for me. They were one piece rings and bases. I knew better but was a bonehead, and tried them out.

Also the rings for model 70’s, 700’s, Howa, Weatherby, and Bergara have different height rings due to the shape of the receiver. The front base and ring is shorter than the rear. There are more with Mauser-ish receivers I’m sure but those just came to mind. I think the quality rings and bases will resolve the issue quickly. If not I’ll cuss and call Weatherby.

They aren’t bastard rings pieced together. Just cheap ones that were out of spec for a Vanguard. Talley actually shows the dimensions of 700, and Vanguard bases and rings. Their 700 rings are just slightly shorter in the rear than their Vanguard rings. Long story short, if the measurements of the two part models are different, then they aren’t the same rings. They also have different part numbers, different.

There are only a few thousandths difference between the two models of rings. (700 and VG) So they may interchange with each other in certain situations. The Monstrum rings were .022” shorter in the rear, much different than quality rings and bases measure. .022” equates to roughly 20 MOA difference in point of impact. At least that’s what DNZ relayed to me when I called. I wasn’t sure so that’s why I called them.

On a happy note, the Vanguard may be the best value of any rifle on the market. I haven’t fired it yet, but you get a LOT of rifle for under $800. Beautiful wood, great checkering, smooth bolt, fit and finish is very nice, and a sub-MOA guarantee. Also the recoil lug is factory bedded and there is no play at all between stock and action even without tightening them down. As I said I haven’t fired it but there is a lot of rifle there. I’m officially impressed.
 
One piece or two piece, any difference in height should be addressed in the mounts, not the rings. Same with one piece rings and bases, the obvious difference there is the integration of the ring and base in one part, even two piece. No different than the XP-100 or 600 Mohawk, none of mine use different ring height front to back, that is all machined into the base. The weaver I have on one XP-100 has a shim for the rear to put under the one piece base. But your right, they have to be made to fit the reciever.
 
RL338 said:
The issue is the 2 piece mounts. A quick look on Midway shows the problem.
View attachment 25571View attachment 25572View attachment 25573View attachment 25574
Click to expand...
I agree with you completely. The Game Reaper 1 piece mount I have coming is specified for only the Howa 1500, and Vanguard.

700, 70’s, and Bergara’s all have different model and part numbers for their respective 1 piece DNZ mounts.

The Burris FF-2 has 40 MOA of adjustment, BDC reticle, and has steel low profile turrets. I’ve got this same 4.5x14x42 on 3 other rifles and this is the first time I’ve had an issue of not enough adjustment. It’s not designed to have the turrets cranked up or down in the field. The BDC reticle handles that chore once you sight it in at 200 yards. It’s never been used and is new. I’ve had them for 5-6 years in my garage.

Natchez had them on clearance for $139 each. Normal price for them at that time was $360, so I bought 4 of them for future use. I also bought 4 clearance Nikon Buckmasters when they announced they weren’t making Nikon scopes any longer. I really love how clear the optics are in the Nikon. Crystal clear. The Nikons have 80 MOA of adjustment. So the it would probably not had the problem. Still have two of those.

It all boils down to the fact that I didn’t delve deeper into 1 piece mounts. I dropped the ball and thought any 700 compatible mount would interchange with the Vanguard. I probably wouldn’t have had this issue if I had used one of the Nikons. I’ve always felt Burris had the upper hand over Nikon. I have never had an issue rise up with the Nikons though, rock solid. Never too old to learn.
 
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While I have ran some cheap rings before and you don't exactly need to a spend a fortune, I always thought it was funny that some people will spend tons on a rifle and scope and then go the budget route for rings/bases. Stuff happens though and at times, that's all we can afford.

That said, I've either go Talley, Warne or DNZ for rings/mounts. I also like that Talley's are made in my state and DNZ just one state away. They have both been very helpful when I've had questions. You'll like the DNZ, my buddy and I have several. He even has a DNZ mount on his stainless Weatherby Vanguard S2. No issues with it at all.
 
Joec7651 said:
I agree, I’ve not seen it until now. When I called Talley and DNZ they did say each thousandth of an inch higher or lower equals roughly 1 MOA. It was the first time trying them, there won’t be a second for me. They were one piece rings and bases. I knew better but was a bonehead, and tried them out.

Also the rings for model 70’s, 700’s, Howa, Weatherby, and Bergara have different height rings due to the shape of the receiver. The front base and ring is shorter than the rear. There are more with Mauser-ish receivers I’m sure but those just came to mind. I think the quality rings and bases will resolve the issue quickly. If not I’ll cuss and call Weatherby.

They aren’t bastard rings pieced together. Just cheap ones that were out of spec for a Vanguard. Talley actually shows the dimensions of 700, and Vanguard bases and rings. Their 700 rings are just slightly shorter in the rear than their Vanguard rings. Long story short, if the measurements of the two part models are different, then they aren’t the same rings. They also have different part numbers, different.

There are only a few thousandths difference between the two models of rings. (700 and VG) So they may interchange with each other in certain situations. The Monstrum rings were .022” shorter in the rear, much different than quality rings and bases measure. .022” equates to roughly 20 MOA difference in point of impact. At least that’s what DNZ relayed to me when I called. I wasn’t sure so that’s why I called them.

On a happy note, the Vanguard may be the best value of any rifle on the market. I haven’t fired it yet, but you get a LOT of rifle for under $800. Beautiful wood, great checkering, smooth bolt, fit and finish is very nice, and a sub-MOA guarantee. Also the recoil lug is factory bedded and there is no play at all between stock and action even without tightening them down. As I said I haven’t fired it but there is a lot of rifle there. I’m officially impressed.
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Joe, I agree with you. Bought Talley's for the Vanguard purchased while back and they work fine. The rifle is a Talas 7mm08 and it groups well. Have gotten as tight as .2-.5 a few 1in couple over. Haven't done anything to it but adjust the trigger some. As you said it is a good value for the price. Dan.
 
jimbires said:
I don't have a vanguard . I've read about this problem more than a few times . just because it screws down doesn't mean it's right .
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Amen Jim, I have read about it quite a few times as well. Unfortunately I dismissed it until it impacted me.

Dan, I was just hard headed. Self taught lessons have deep roots. I knew better. All my rifles have Talleys, except for this one. I’ve never had an issue with them. I’m optimistic about the DNZ Game Reaper, it looks rugged and has great reviews.
 
Joec7651 said:
Amen Jim, I have read about it quite a few times as well. Unfortunately I dismissed it until it impacted me.

Dan, I was just hard headed. Self taught lessons have deep roots. I knew better. All my rifles have Talleys, except for this one. I’ve never had an issue with them. I’m optimistic about the DNZ Game Reaper, it looks rugged and has great reviews.
Click to expand...
Yes sir I understand. Been there done that.
 
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