Elk Camp Etiquette

[Cowboy307]

Greetings! I'm new to the forum and I'd like to start by expressing my appreciation for what I've already learned from forum members and my respect for the civil and insightful dialogue I've observed. I'm hoping to learn a bit more about elk camp etiquette as I've booked a (first-time) guided elk hunt here in Wyoming this fall and I'd appreciate any insights the members here might care to share about the various "dos and don'ts."

For example, one issue that occurs to me is the matter of how far guides might typically expect clients to take shots at elk. I read so much about "long distance hunting" and, candidly, I'd probably choose to pass on any shot over, say, 300 yards because that would be beyond my comfort zone for a high likelihood kill. (FWIW, I'll be hunting in fairly open country and using either a 7 RM or a 300 WSM.) Would this make me a bad client in the eyes of the guide? Another example might be me possibly choosing to pass on a shot at a bull elk because of its size, and in hopes of coming across a larger specimen later in the hunt. Would this be regarded as a "reasonable" decision on my part if my guide knows that I'm fully aware that a larger bull may never appear. Another way of phrasing this might be, how important is it to guides to have high client success rates? Of course, there's also the matter of how much to tip, and who to tip.

In general, it's important to me to be a "good client," so if you have any advice about this matter, I'd value your insights. Also, if you care to share any anecdotes you may have about particularly gracious or egregious client behavior, I might learn from that, too. Thanks in advance.
Kind regards,
Cowboy307

 

[DrMike]

Welcome aboard. I saw your earlier post, though I didn't respond. Never used a guide, but I will say that either cartridge you named will work on elk. I have taken elk with both cartridges, and the critters died rather convincingly. I'd say my average shot on elk has been between 130 and 150 yards. You know your comfort level. If a guide pushes you to go beyod your established comfort zone, he is out of line. This is especially true if you are up front concerning that comfort zone. Again, you know what you are looking for in game. If you are looking for meat, then let the outfitter know. If, however, you have a desire to go for a trophy animal and you have discussed this with the outfitter, then the guide should be aware of what you are after. This is a matter of communication, and the guide (and the outfitter) hould respect your desires. You are the client, and it is your money that is going into the pocket of the outfitter.

 

[Blkram]

Be candid with your outfitter and your guide (they are not always the same individual) as to your comfort zone for shooting distance.
There is no shame in admitting that you may not be the best shot out there...the outfitter or guide will learn this soon enough when you are shooting at an animals...
And let them know what distances you are comfortable to from various shooting positions; from an improvised rest such as a branch or side of a tree or post, or from off a pack or jacket rolled up on a rock or log, from prone, or from shooting sticks. Practice from all of these to be prepared for your potential shot opportunities on the hunt. Be sure to ask which are most likely to be used where you'll be hunting.
If they push you into shooting and you aren't comfortable with the shot opportunity, then they aren't a very good guide. Remember, if you draw blood and lose a wounded animal, you are going to be paying for it...and maybe in more ways than one! If they support your decision, it will let you know that they are a quality guide, and they will appreciate your honesty.

Either rifle will provide you with enough velocity and energy to provide good expansion for tissue damage, and weight retention for penetration. Recommend 160's in the 7mm and 180's in the 300.

As for trophy quality, discuss this with your outfitter. They will let you know what a realistic expectation is for their area. Not all areas produce 400" elk, let alone 350" bulls. If you are looking for a 300-325" bull, and that is typical for the area, your guide will let you know. If they know that a larger bull, or bulls, exist in the area, they will let you know that too. But be prepared to go home empty handed if you pass on 325" bulls trying to find that one 340" bull that may exist in the area. (This is where you hear people talking about not passing on a bull the first day, that you would shoot on the last day.)
Be honest with yourself as to the quality of the bull you hope to take...and remember just because a bull only scores 310" doesn't mean he may not be an old warrior with heavy tines and good mass that is just as magnificent a trophy as a younger bull with longer main beams, wider spread, and/or longer tines that will score 340".
Is it the experience, or the score that matters most to you? And only you can answer this. And there is nothing wrong with wanting a 350" bull! Not unreasonable at all. But they do not grow this big in all areas. (There's a reason why the Apaches charge $50,000+ for a 400" bull!) Other factors may impact trophy quality year to year as well...how hot and dry it is, how good the feed is, how much water there is, how tough the previous winter was and how good of shape the bulls came through the winter in, etc. Stay in contact with the outfitter and he can fill you in with the details over the course of the rest of this winter, spring and summer, leading up to your hunt.

Discuss tipping expectations and process with the outfitter. Each has their preferences in amounts and how it is paid. A typical tip is approx. 10% of the hunt cost and may go to the guide. If you are happier and can afford it, you can tip more. Some outfitters will take the tip directly and then split amongst the guides, wranglers, cooks and campees.

A good client comes in with realistic expectations, has prepared well for the hunt physically and mentally, practiced shooting from field positions at various distances with their rifle, isn't afraid to pitch in with camp chores (cooking, packing water, chopping firewood, etc.), had some riding lessons or practice for conditioning prior to the hunt, and helping with field dressing game, packing out meat, etc.
And if you have any issues (physical conditioning, handicaps, old injuries, medical conditions, dietary restrictions, etc.) make sure you let them know ahead of time so that they are prepared and can provide you with the necessary assistance to ensure that your hunt goes well with any requisite provisions. And do not forget to tell them how you plan to have your trophy mounted (life size, shoulder mount, European mount, etc.) so they know how to handle your trophy and cape in the field.
And most of all, a good client enjoys the whole experience and considers it a success, even if they do not take their chosen quarry.

Bad clients: Complain about everything, have unrealistic expectations, are lazy, blame everyone else for everything that goes wrong, haven't prepared for the hunt, have poor attitudes, give up when the going gets tough, or things do not go according to plan, and try to guide the guide (they are the local expert), etc.

Hope this answers most of your questions.
Hoping you will have a great adventure!

 

[sako2]

A good guide will get you in your comfort zone. He will tell you what class the animal is. If they tell you it's a 320" bull and it scores 340 he pays the difference. They will also notice what your condition is like very quickly. My guide knew in a 1/2 hr i was struggling with the altitude. Knowing their client is part of their job.

 

[salmonchaser]

Welcome to the forum, the outlines above will set you up to be a good client. When I was guiding clients started showing up more and more with “long range rifles. On our check your zero range we had a 10 inch steel plate set at 400. The guys who showed up with their rifle zeroed and had shot at 400 before could generally hit the plate from the bench. Just off the bench we had a great little spot to shoot from sitting. Very few, without the use of supports of some kind, could hit the plate 3/5 without sticks. Point being an experienced guide will likely have had the same general experience. Let them know you’re good to 300 they will plan accordingly.
If you are running regularly, particularly at altitude and go under 35 minutes in a 10k you’re in good shape but you still may be well served by adding some good consistent anaerobic work. It’s amazing how fast a 20 something year old guide, wearing ropers, can climb 150 feet up a steep ridge to get on elk, give it some thought.
If you’re not in great shape, every ounce of effort you put into it will pay dividends. Even if it’s just brisk walking. Assuming your rifle is ready and you have to choose between shooting and working out, work out. I’ve hunted elk for 57 years, seen way more tags go home in wallets do to poor conditioning over poor shooting.
Couple of don’t;
Show up with brand new boots in the box.
Scope bore sighted only, sounds like your not that guy
Scope mounted with windage dial up elevation dial on the port side, ok only saw this just once. (Sportsman’s did the work)
Scope on backward, same LA area sportsman’s
Most of all have a great adventure, any elk is trophy.

 

[jimbires]

tell the outfitter before booking , what size elk you're looking for . he should be able to tell you if that area produces that size , or he'll tell you more of what's generally harvested in that area .ask about his success rate on ones the size you're wanting . tell him you're wanting to keep shots inside of XX yards . he might say no problem , or he could say that's not going to happen in this area . tell him anything special about you , physical limitations , food allergies , etc . the outfitter will let you know if they can accommodate you . wounding , some hunts are over if you draw blood but don't recover the animal . other hunts I've been on they gave it a good hard honest look to recover the animal , and then just started to hunt again . one hunt I was on the hunter wounded a few animals , and was finally told his next one is the last one , find it or not . bring clothes and gear , suitable to what the outfitter recommends .

on the hunt , just listen to your guide. He knows best . if he askes you something , be honest with him . I was on a hunt and things weren't going too well . my guide asked me if I wanted to keep hunting where we had hunted the previous couple days , or would I like to go hunt new ground the next day .

around camp , just be easy going . if someone rubs you the wrong way , stay away from him . if the guides say something listen to them . things like no food in your tent , it would be best to heed their warning .

tipping , I tip my guide 10% . I also tip everyone that helped me during the hunt . cook, wrangler , the camp handyman , if they helped me they get a little something . keep in mind that if you were not successful , but had opportunities , your guide did his job and deserves his tip . if you take your animal an hour into the first morning , your guide did his job and deserves his tip , don't prorate his tip . I've been on hunts where it's getting late in the week and the second guide will help a hunter and his guide be successful . I've never been in this situation . I'm not sure what I'd do . I'd probably get the two guys together and give them the tip , and tell them to split it up between them, how they see fit .

be in good shape , and keep a positive attitude .

 

[Cowboy307]

Such good insights and advice. Thank you! I've read through the collective responses to my posts a few times now and I very much appreciate having all this information. I'm going to let everything "percolate" and I'll probably come back here with another question or two, if anything new occurs to me. Again, I'm very grateful for your thoughtful responses.

 

[Guy Miner]

My response is late - you've received some great advice. I haven't taken any great number of elk, only three. One was on a guided hunt in Oregon, one was with a good friend who is a very experienced elk hunter and I may as well have been guided. He wanted to help me get a bull. He did. Another was a pure DIY hunt here a few miles from home when I drew the cow tag.

1) Be in the best shape possible. Strong. Resilient. Long days, lots of walking, maybe at higher altitudes, my bull was taken at about 9,000 - 10,000' the two cows at much lower elevation.
2) If you're going to be riding a horse/mule, get some miles in ahead of time. Different muscles different soreness. It can hurt bad after a while if you're not used to it. I don't ride often but I had to ride for the bull hunt.
3) Shoot a lot. KNOW your rifle and load. The shot you take while hunting should be something you've practiced before. The range, the position used, the same rifle, scope and ammo. Find a setup and combo you like, and don't mess with it. Just shoot regularly, particularly as the hunt approaches. Shoot from field positions, not just from a bench. Consider doing some coyote hunting or some sort of varmint shooting with your elk rifle! It will get you field time with the rifle. This is something your guide needs you to be able to do - shoot well.

4) Learn as much as you can about the hunt before booking. These days there seems to be a lot of emphasis on long range shooting, but that's not necessary everywhere. My three elk came at about 170, 340 and 405 yards. One bull at 170 or so, the cows came at 340 and 405 yards. There was absolutely No Way to stalk closer to either of those cows! Check out the photos of my cow elk here and the terrain around them, you'll understand why stalking closer was impossible:


That's the 2023 Oregon cow elk. You can see why it was a longer shot. 405 yards in a stiff crosswind with my 30-06. "Filmjunkie" Dale, was there and helped me get as close as we did which took one heck of a stalk on hands and knees...


2016 Washington cow elk, huge! Taken a few miles from my home on a DIY hunt with friends there for support. A single 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip from my 30-06 did the job at 340 yards. There was absolutely no way to get closer.

And I might as well throw in the Wind River Wyoming bull from 25 years ago when I was a lot younger & tougher. One shot from a 7mm Rem Mag, 175 grain Nosler Partition at about 170 yards. The big bull took a few faltering steps forward after the shot then collapsed. Closer ranges like this are good, hitting well is far more likely. Early morning shot. Tell ya what - when this deer hunter walked up on the bull, I was overwhelmed.


So, be ready for a longer shot. A standard hunting rifle hurling a good bullet works fine. Zero it well and be prepared for a potentially challenging shot. I shot the bull from sitting using my sling to stabilize the rifle, the 2016 cow was from prone with the rifle rested on a backpack, the 2023 cow was shot from a tripod while I was sitting. These were with normal hunting rifles. The bull fell to a cheap synthetic stocked Rem 700 with a 3-9x Leupold. The 2016 cow to a Rem 700 CDL in 30-06 with an old 2-7x Redfield. I switched to a 6x Leupold on that same 30-06 long before my 2023 cow elk hunt. Just normal, decent, hunting rifles, nothing special with rifle or scope.

Don't get all worried about it, just select a good outfitter, get in good shape, and prepare to place a good bullet well. Since you've already selected your outfitter, communicate with him. You and your guide need to trust each other and get along well. BTW, there are grizzlies in Wyoming, lots of them. Yes, they can be a bit of a worry on a hunt, especially in western Wyoming.

Best of luck!

Guy

 

[RL338]

Others have gave great advice. I would add.
Trust your gut instinct if you don’t feel comfortable with what is presented , wait for a better try.

 

[Cowboy307]

Thank you all for helping me understand the likely experience and set appropriate/realistic expectations. This hunt will be a bucket list thing for me, although one I hope to repeat over the coming years. I'm not new to hunting or firearms, but my big game hunting experience is limited to whitetail dear. I've always wanted to go on an elk hunt and now I have the chance. I want to take in the full experience, so I've booked a wilderness elk hunt (horses, tents, etc.) in western Wyoming (I'm a Wyoming resident). (Guy, I'll try my best to avoid the grizzlies!) If I shoot a trophy bull elk, fantastic. And if I don't, that's OK, too. I'll be living out a dream that I've had for decades...

 

[gerry]

I should have guided for you guys who are tipping 10% in my two year mountain goat guiding career they never got close to that amount!
@Cowboy307 good luck on your hunt! You've gotten some good advice from the elk guys on here.

 

[Guy Miner]

Cowboy, we're all rooting for you!

Have fun and tag a great elk.

Guy

 

[DrMike]

I'm not new to hunting or firearms, but my big game hunting experience is limited to whitetail dear.

I've never hunted whitetail dear--found mine pretty quickly when I was still boy. I've hunted whitetail deer quite a long while since I caught my dear.

Okay, I'm pulling your leg. We're all pulling for you to have a grand hunt that ends in success as you fulfil your wildest dreams.

 

[Cowboy307]

 

[jimbires]

I should have guided for you guys who are tipping 10% in my two year mountain goat guiding career they never got close to that amount!
@Cowboy307 good luck on your hunt! You've gotten some good advice from the elk guys on here.

I've often wondered about this . can you give a guess about how much an average guide tip was , and about how much the hunt cost ? is the 10% tip for just the guide , or is the 10% a total tip that you split up between everybody that helped during the hunt ?

I've done a bunch of out of state hunting , and hunted Canada a few times . some guided , some DIY . I've always tried to be generous with my tip . I've always thought I might want to go back and hunt with these guys again . I did a few hunts with a guy that had all kinds of money to throw around , until it was time for the tip . he would hand out his tips and explain how his work has been slow , house needed repairs , car had a major break down, had to buy new boots for this trip , you name it he used it as an excuse . it was embarrassing . the last hunt I went along with him was a hunt in Canada . when we saw a casino , we had to stop and try his luck . we stopped at 2 or 3 casinos on the way there . when it was time to give tips , he poor mouthed his way through . I don't think his guide would accept his tip , or only accepted some of it . while the rest of us guys were giving our tips he disappeared . he tells us while driving home , He got with the outfitter and booked a hunt for the next year , while we were giving tips . then we hit all the casinos on the way home .

 

[Blkram]

On my NZ hunt the outfitter suggested 10% as the overall tip ($2000 USD), and asked me to distribute it amongst the staff accordingly. The guide got the lions share at 10% of the trophy fees, but she did the most work. But the cook and the campee each got a share; based on 10% of the day rates.
On my Africa hunt, the outfitter had me give him the 10% tip ($2000 CDN; this outfitter took CDN as he books a lot of Canadian hunters), so he could distribute to the tracker, the cook and the campees...not sure how he did it from there.
On my Colorado archery hunt, we gave 10% ($1,350 USD) for each hunt to the particular guides (my daughter had a different guide ($900) than I, for her elk hunt, and my antelope hunt ($450)).

When I guided (assistant guide working beside my Dad as Master Guide, taking one of the hunters in each 2:1 party) in 2006. I got a $200 USD tip from my Portugese hunter for his moose, and got a $400 USD tip from my Canadian hunter for his elk. I received these from the outfitter, not the hunters. I was also informed that $200 from the Portugese hunter was a great tip, as the Portugese are known for not tipping at all.
I will say that I hadn't counted on tips, so viewed it as a bonus, as I worked the two week long hunts just to get to go guiding with my Dad while on my vacation from work that fall. Was a ton of fun, horseback hunting in the mountains of NE BC!