Expansion, Penetration, Velocity, Energy

[Blkram]

A great point mentioned above was the full penetration on bears, that provides a good blood trail.

While bears are known for little blood trails, they can be difficult to drop DRT. Smaller bears are not that difficult to kill with cartridges useful for deer, but the bigger bears to require more.

A big boar (black or grizzly) has larger, heavier bone and heavier muscle. Their skin is not overly thick, but can be very loose as on a spring bear. This means that the loose skin will move and cover wounds, and the thick fur will soak up more blood leaving less blood trail. Conversely, fall bears have thick layers of fat that also plug off wounds and provide little blood trail. These factors call for the "enough gun" rule. Larger calibers with heavier bullets will ensure full penetration and two exterior wounds to leave better blood trails.

While I like all of a bullets energy to be expended inside the animal, big bears is where I prefer exit wounds of sufficient size to provide better blood trails. I also aim to hit and break big bone on big bears (offside shoulder and am willing to wait for that shot) so as to limit how far they go after the first hit, as they tend to run more often than they DRT. Unwary bears are a different matter to a bear that is aware of your presence or even agitated. As their demeanour changes, the challenge of a quick, clean harvest can get more difficult, as their presentation to you will change (frontal or quartering to) and/or they will be moving to/away from you, often very quickly, which makes good bullet placement even more difficult.

And I too prefer the double lung shot to the heart shot. A heart shot animal tends run as the shock to the heart really kicks in their adrenaline, whereas taking away their ability to breathe limits how much and how far they will move after the shot (direct experience on multiple big game species over the years). This leads to quicker expiration and shorter blood trails.

For the bigger bears, I believe that the minimum is the 30-06 with 180 gr and heavier bullets of good design such as the Partition, AccuBond, E-Tip, A-Frame, Triple Shocks, etc. The bigger 30's get better and the 338's are even better. The 338 SGK gets a thicker jacket than in other caliber so penetration of this cup and core bullet is better than in others. The 35's from the 356/358 on up are great, the 9.3's and the 375's add even more.

But if I was to end up in a tricky situation with a bear while having another rifle in my hands (such as on a deer, sheep or goat hunt), bullet placement on major bone is going to be my first priority. Follow up shots into the vitals will quickly follow. This is a skill that must be practiced (see Handguns/Grizzlies thread).

 

[tddeangelo]

I am not saying this to be a smart aleck, and I give that disclaimer because I think it will come off that way without a disclaimer.

What, exactly, is "overkill"?

It seems pretty vague and variable to me.

I'm told that a lot of what I use to kill whitetails is overkill. But I kill them pretty efficiently and with pretty low amounts of lost meat to bullet damage.

I just processed a few days ago a whitetail doe I shot with a 300WSM using a 180pt. DRT with a cns hit (high shoulder/spine hit) and I lost no more meat to that bullet than I did to the arrow I shot through a buck earlier this same season.

So I guess my take is that I don't much worry about overkill, so to speak.

I've lost exactly one deer so far when using a firearm, and that deer was killed later on. I got to see the problem. It was a complete structural failure of the 6mm bullet I'd used. It made a wound that failed to penetrate the body cavity. Didn't even hit the leg/shoulder, but was about as perfect a shot placement for an arrow as you could make.... right above the elbow and in the crease. The deer was killed three weeks later with significant infection and atrophy where the wound occurred.

That colors my judgment. I lean hard towards bullets like the Partition because I want them to get in deep enough.

I hear often "a 30-06/300wsm/etc is overkill."

Maybe.

But then again, I'd rather have more than I need than not enough.

Lots of ways to skin the cat, for sure.

And I've shot deer with chanberings like the 243, 257 Roberts, and 6.5x55.

They absolutely work.

I guess I just see the term "overkill" tossed around and I see it a bit differently.

I do understand that deer can be killed using a bit less bullet and powder mass than I use, but I don't see a savings on powder or bullets as a real compelling reason to shoot one round or another.

Recoil? Perhaps. At 41, my perception of recoil is different than it was at 21. It likely will change again by the time I reach 61. Maybe that's really where "overkill" is defined? When recoil gets to the point beyond where the shooter is comfortable? I don't ever feel a hunter should go to that extent.

Interesting topic. Deceptively simple on the surface, but lots of depth to explore.

 

[BF375]

You nailed it with the recoil thing. The overkill business applies more to the shooter managing more gun than he can handle than anything else.

 

[SJB358]

It's hard to believe the amount of animals our grandparents killed with a 300 Savage and 30-30...

If there weren't 100's of 1000's of pieces of evidence no one would believe it!!

I think 99% of the time it's the hunter more so than the bullets or the cartridges we stuff into our rifles. I don't hunt with junk bullets because it's a waste of my time. I spend so much more on all other aspects of hunting to think saving 30 bucks on a box of bullets is smart.

Overkill.... never heard of it... :lol:

 

[Teknys]

Very Interesting Thread !
My thoughts:
1.0 Placement - nothing else matters if this does not occur.
2.0 Proper Bullet for the game with enough velocity to get penetration.
3.0 Once there then expansion.

So simply=Put the Right bullet in the Right place with the Right velocity and it will perform to our satisfaction

All of the 4 components come together for a successful kill if the recipe is right.

Deer - I like BT and similar bullets.
Elk - lean toward penetration - PT or AB or the likes. They are a big animal. Just pack one out once, you'll see. Elk can really take a punch when the are alerted. Not too bad if they are relaxed when shot.

Deer Hunting means very different things depending on where you are. Deep brush / timber, shots of 50 yds is a long shot. In the prairie or out west in mountains, 200 - 300 yds in not uncommon. Have to match the load to the situation but the recipe still stands.

I've taken deer with 22-250 thru 338Win and with Muzzleloaders for about 40 years now. I've come to my simple thought of Right Bullet in the Right Place with enough Velocity for the bullet to perform.
Same goes for Elk - just more important to be right. If not - a bad day will follow.

 

[Africa Huntress]

First let me say that I have enjoyed reading this thread. You fellows sure have a wealth of knowledge.

I would like to make one comment.

Tom said it and Scotty agreed with it---and I would like to add that I have no idea what "overkill" is. I guess, if I understand its meaning then I am 100% for it. We hunt many animals that when we shoot them we want them to fall over on the first shot. whether they charge you after the first shot or you have to track them after the first shot, either can be dangerous to your health.

It also appears that we prefer heavy to caliber bullets more than you fellows do. Example, we only use 200 or 220 grain bullets in the 300 H & H. I noticed most mentions of 30-06, 308, etc type calibers were used with 180 and smaller.

Blkram's post which mentioned the 30-06 with 180's and LARGER for the big bears certainly seems to be more in line with what we do----However, this does not mean we are correct, but thought I would mention it

Best Regards

Jamila

 

[truck driver]

First let me say that I have enjoyed reading this thread. You fellows sure have a wealth of knowledge.

I would like to make one comment.

Tom said it and Scotty agreed with it---and I would like to add that I have no idea what "overkill" is. I guess, if I understand its meaning then I am 100% for it. We hunt many animals that when we shoot them we want them to fall over on the first shot. whether they charge you after the first shot or you have to track them after the first shot, either can be dangerous to your health.

It also appears that we prefer heavy to caliber bullets more than you fellows do. Example, we only use 200 or 220 grain bullets in the 300 H & H. I noticed most mentions of 30-06, 308, etc type calibers were used with 180 and smaller.

Blkram's post which mentioned the 30-06 with 180's and LARGER for the big bears certainly seems to be more in line with what we do----However, this does not mean we are correct, but thought I would mention it

Best Regards

Jamila

So what we're doing is matching the bullet design with bullet weight and velocity to the caliber for the best performance on game?

 

[Guy Miner]

First let me say that I have enjoyed reading this thread. You fellows sure have a wealth of knowledge.

I would like to make one comment.

Tom said it and Scotty agreed with it---and I would like to add that I have no idea what "overkill" is. I guess, if I understand its meaning then I am 100% for it. We hunt many animals that when we shoot them we want them to fall over on the first shot. whether they charge you after the first shot or you have to track them after the first shot, either can be dangerous to your health.

It also appears that we prefer heavy to caliber bullets more than you fellows do. Example, we only use 200 or 220 grain bullets in the 300 H & H. I noticed most mentions of 30-06, 308, etc type calibers were used with 180 and smaller.

Blkram's post which mentioned the 30-06 with 180's and LARGER for the big bears certainly seems to be more in line with what we do----However, this does not mean we are correct, but thought I would mention it

Best Regards

Jamila

Given that most of us hunt deer and elk.... And you hunt Africa, where many of the animals are bigger. I'm not at all surprised that you favor the heavier bullets.

Intellectually I do too, and I admit going with a 175 gr Nosler Partition when I got serious about hunting big bull elk. A very heavy for caliber bullet.

But you African hunters seem to deal with bigger animals on a more regular basis than most of us here in the U.S.

Guy

 

[DrMike]

Interesting discussion. Being of a certain age, I grew up favouring heavy for caliber bullets. It took many years before I could make myself use 160 or 150 grain bullets in my 7mm RM; I used 175 grain Hornady Interlocks, graduating to 175 grain TBBC soon after. The .356 Winchester required 250 grain bullets; 220 grain or 180 grain bullets were just too light. I discovered that, as several have mentioned, that the newer bullets able to maintain integrity have been a game changer. Increasingly, I favour premium bullets (bonded core, monolithic or mechanical enhanced, such as Partitions). Shot placement is still the key, but the premium bullets ensure that when the shot is less than perfect due to any of a number of factors, the probability of a clean kill is enhanced.

 

[Europe]

Jamila, add me to the list along with Dr Mike, Tom and Scotty. If I can handle the recoil, I will use a larger caliber and heavy for caliber bullet. Whether, I am paying for the hunt, spending days tracking/hunting an animal, or hunting game that can hunt me, I prefer to end the hunt with one shot. Placement is of course key, imho, a premium bullet is a must ( the bullet is the cheapest part of the hunt, so I never understood using anything but the best ). If they dont go down a large exit hole, helps find the wounded animal and of course doing everything possible, which includes for me, using the largest gun and bullet I can shoot properly to eliminate the need to track them, especially a lion, leopard, bear, buffalo type animal.

 

[DrMike]

Anything with claws and teeth deserves to go down quickly. Anything that can run through thick bush or over high mountains for ten miles deserves to go down quickly. Okay, pretty much anything I might hunt deserves to go down quickly.

 

[tddeangelo]

DrMike, I don't hunt anything that's going into another canyon or will bite back. I haven't yet, anyway, lol.

But crossing a property line is a problem, and I hunt a property that's all of 80 acres. That's why I use high shoulder shots primarily, because I really don't want it leaving the property. That's pretty much a lost animal at that point, even if it doesn't survive long after crossing the line.

 

[Elkman]

Thank goodness for this discussion. Now after all of these years, the guilt that I felt for killing Mule Deer, with a 300B, and 300 WM, was misplaced. Thank you all!!! :grin:

 

[salmonchaser]

Ive said it before; deader is better. Although the bull I shot with the 577/700 grain lion tough soft point, went a ways with a thumb size hole clear through him. Wasn't too much gun, too much bullet.

 

[Thankful Otter]

Elk man, I also want to thank the folks for letting me know that I am "o.k." with using a large caliber with a large bullet for small game animals.

My unscientific response to the original question is-----if I do my part a 250 gr woodleigh at 2300 fps ( or is it 2400, I forgot ) always puts dinner on the table and for me that is the bottom line. However in all fairness if my grandfather was here ( he leaves for the winter and since he does all our reloading ) he would love this thread.

 

[truck driver]

Thank goodness for this discussion. Now after all of these years, the guilt that I felt for killing Mule Deer, with a 300B, and 300 WM, was misplaced. Thank you all!!! :grin:

Yep makes me feel better using the 35Whelen/AI with the 225gr PT this year to kill the doe I harvested.

Tom I never have to worry about recovery of an animal here in MD since the Law states I have that right but I still need permission to trespass and have to contact the land owner first if they refuse then I just call for back up LEO or DNR.

The biggest problem is unethical hunters who will claim your kill if it runs out of sight and you have to track it any distance.
Sorry if I got off topic.

 

[elkeater2]

Way back when I was a highschooler and beginning handloader, the local fox farm was paying premium prices for Wyoming jackrabbits. I was given a big bagful of the old Remington 175 grain 7mm roundnose bullets for loading in my 7x57 Mauser. Perfect!! :grin:

 

[baltz526]

I believe you should have enough of each to make the kill in the worst possible location. If you are hunting Elk on big canyons, where You make the shot to anchor the animal, so it can not run off into a giant hellhole. I want the bullet to hit at a high velocity, Penetrate very well through bones with enough energy and expansion to drop that bull in its tracks. Take that same Elk and place it out on a large snow covered sage flat and I am not as worried about massive trauma, dropped in its tracks performance. Out in the sage a 308 with a 150gr bullet would be plenty. On the canyon a 338 Lapua with a 300gr might not be enough.

 

[SJB358]

I believe you should have enough of each to make the kill in the worst possible location. If you are hunting Elk on big canyons, where You make the shot to anchor the animal, so it can not run off into a giant hellhole. I want the bullet to hit at a high velocity, Penetrate very well through bones with enough energy and expansion to drop that bull in its tracks. Take that same Elk and place it out on a large snow covered sage flat and I am not as worried about massive trauma, dropped in its tracks performance. Out in the sage a 308 with a 150gr bullet would be plenty. On the canyon a 338 Lapua with a 300gr might not be enough.

Well said

I tend to like 2900 plus with wide expanders that'll get to the far side of any elk. I know people balk at it, but a bullet that blast thru 5 one gallon water jugs will usually make that happen. Some Bullets penetrate more like a Partition but some will wreck all 5 jugs and those are the ones caught in the hide on the far side... nothing is perfect, but with all of the great Bullets out there it's really hard to pick a poor one.

 

[Dwh7271]

While maybe not germane to this discussion, I really think you can in many cases distill it down to shooting what you have or even perhaps shooting what you shoot well. I'll take a 264 bullet or even good 243 bullet well placed behind the shoulder over a poorly placed medium bore bullet any day. The deer I killed with the 45-70 or 444 or 300 weren't any deader nor did they die quicker than all the ones I shot with the 6mm years ago. I'm certainly not advocating everyone needs a 6mm for deer or whatever nor am I dissing the medium bores which I have an ever growing soft spot for.
RADD has me bad :grin: and I have quite a few more than I need to do the job humanely but I'm not altogether sure I wasn't in just as good a shape for hunting when I only had one or two. ( I know, heresy!) I can tell you I knew exactly what that one or two would do.