Expansion, Penetration, Velocity, Energy

This a great question, and I believe that the answer lies in the difference in the lives of the animals in consideration.

While it is true that bovines are larger animals than elk, and can weigh 2 -2 1/2 times as much our largest elk, our domesticated cattle (of which the bones used in the aforementioned tests) do not live as tough a lifecycle as our elk do, or have to cover the amount of ground or terrain types as an elk does to travel from bedding areas to water and feeding areas. Nor do they have to be able to outrun predators on a daily basis, in the variety of terrain that an elk does. Our domesticated cattle do not travel more than a quarter mile to water or food if at all possible, in order to gain as much meat on their bones as possible prior to being shipped to the meat packers before they reach two years old. Even older cattle, while their bones grow larger, do not really live tougher lives for the most part. Cattle, also do not have the constitution of an elk (read will to live, vigor and tenacity of life).

A mature bull elk (most hunters primary target on license) is usually between 4-8 years old and has had to work hard every day of its life to survive. He lives in harsh environments 365 days a year, and can cover 15 miles between bedding and water/feeding areas each morning and evening. He works hard to traverse the often steep terrain that they life in, and has to be able to survive predator attacks, hunters and climatic conditions. This is going to result in an animal that is hardier, and tougher. And hard work builds heavier bone. Evolution and survival of the fittest have taken care of the rest.

As a comparison, think about the ancient and medieval soldiers and archers. Archeologists are able to determine which skeletons belonged to which army personnel just by the density of bone in the archers' drawing shoulder and arms. These archers practiced with their bows every day of their lives to build up their strength and skill. This extra work resulted in heavier bone in their drawing side compared to their bow hand side.

Hope this helps. There may be better or more scientific answers to your question, but this has been my conclusion to this same question after reading that article on the elk bone penetration experiment some 15 odd years ago.
 
Let's say for the sake of argument that you're right. The question then becomes, is the difference significant? The test evaluated penetration into newspaper after two inches of tissue, a five-inch diameter femur knuckle, then two more inches of tissue. At near muzzle velocity, no less.

Even if the density is less, would you expect bullet performance to be substantially different? I wouldn't.





P
 
I actually thought pronghorns had the densest bones. While small they are extremely hard. Don't know, just read it.

Either way, it's a cool test.
 
180 Partition after it blasted though one knuckle and was found in the far side knuckle. From a 300 Win at 175 yards or so.








A 165 AccuBond from a 30/06, bull elk. Ribs in, found the bullet in the far side knuckle.









From my tiny bit of experience elk are tough when you drive into bones. It's also the reason I won't use tin foil Bullets for hunting them. I'll let others do it, I've seen all I need to see to know that marginally built Bullets aren't worth my time.
 
So - I just want to understand this...

We deliberately target the shoulder, rumored here to be the toughest bone in North America, to drop the elk on the spot. Right there.

And that means we need super-duper "elk bullets."

Okay. So, if we don't shoot the elk in the shoulder... Then most any good bullet will do?

I'm not much of an elk hunter. Just want to be sure I've got this.

Guy
 
No, we do not target the shoulder bone going into the onside of an elk. As I have stated before, my preferred shot placement is double lung. And where possible, I like to break the offside shoulder. It shortens tracking jobs considerably, in my experience.

It is a test to show what can happen to a bullet, in the case that the shot placement is less than perfect on an elk, or if the animal takes a step as you fire.

As the elk takes a step forward and that shoulder comes back and covers the heart area as your bullet strikes the elk, will your bullet still be able to reliably break that heaviest part of the shoulder bone and still be able to make it into the vitals (heart and/or lungs) for a quick, clean kill?

The results showed for consistent and reliable penetration on this bone (the densest found on any animal in North America) the minimum cartridge and bullet weight that would do so was 225 grainer out of a 338 Win Mag.

This was just a sharing of an old article performed by an experienced and knowledgable gunwriter who had taken the time to perform an experiment to answer a question, and then shared with us all.

It was never intended to say that other cartridges and bullet combinations could not or would not harvest elk cleanly. Nor was intended to mean that we should target this heavy bone.

Just a "What if?". Then, "What would be best?".
 
Guy Miner":29xf6iux said:
So - I just want to understand this...

We deliberately target the shoulder, rumored here to be the toughest bone in North America, to drop the elk on the spot. Right there.

And that means we need super-duper "elk bullets."

Okay. So, if we don't shoot the elk in the shoulder... Then most any good bullet will do?

I'm not much of an elk hunter. Just want to be sure I've got this.

Guy

Guy, I don't particularly look to "target" the shoulder joint. On a pure standing, broadside shot I'd much rather stick it in the ribs right on the rear edge of the front leg.

BUT elk have rarely presented themselves so perfectly.

The cow in Wyoming was taken at 150 yards and was perfect... couldn't have asked for a better shot opportunity



Bullet went in right on the money and was caught in the hide.. couldn't have been happier.

The bull in Wyoming was moving and I had about 4-6ft window to shoot thru at last light, I touched the trigger as the tan leg hit the vertical cross hair made contact at 75 yards.

I "thought" the bull was moving broadside.. Not the case, he was actually quartering away and the Bullet went in a few ribs back and blasted out the front leg.



You can see the exit on the opposite front leg.

Same bullet used for both elk, 175 Bitterroot.

Sorry for the long way around the question but your 25-06 would have done the same work as the 7 on the cow for sure. But the bull is the case why I tend towards better, heavier constructed Bullets. I didn't know the exact position the elk was in and I was happy to have that big 175 if I was going to drill heavy bones.

I know I'm preaching to the choir though, you've used the same combo on your beautiful Wyoming bull. Having confidence and the "know" your bullet will work takes away doubt and lets me focus on killing them quickly under most normal hunting conditions.
 
Blkram":29hqu91r said:
No, we do not target the shoulder bone going into the onside of an elk. As I have stated before, my preferred shot placement is double lung. And where possible, I like to break the offside shoulder. It shortens tracking jobs considerably, in my experience.

It is a test to show what can happen to a bullet, in the case that the shot placement is less than perfect on an elk, or if the animal takes a step as you fire.

As the elk takes a step forward and that shoulder comes back and covers the heart area as your bullet strikes the elk, will your bullet still be able to reliably break that heaviest part of the shoulder bone and still be able to make it into the vitals (heart and/or lungs) for a quick, clean kill?

The results showed for consistent and reliable penetration on this bone (the densest found on any animal in North America) the minimum cartridge and bullet weight that would do so was 225 grainer out of a 338 Win Mag.

This was just a sharing of an old article performed by an experienced and knowledgable gunwriter who had taken the time to perform an experiment to answer a question, and then shared with us all.

It was never intended to say that other cartridges and bullet combinations could not or would not harvest elk cleanly. Nor was intended to mean that we should target this heavy bone.

Just a "What if?". Then, "What would be best?".

Excellent response/post.

I do the same as Gil and Scotty. as well as most others in this discussion I am sure.

Scotty and Gil ( Gil I dont remember if you have a 348 or not but I know Scotty does ) I have had good results that mirror the conversation in this thread with the 250 Woodleigh. What bullet do you prefer to use or would use if you were using it to hunt literally everything ( caribou, moose, elk, bear, bison, muskox type animals ) ---I think Dr Mike also has a 348, and if so your thoughts Dr Mike or anyone who owns one. What bullet do you use ?

Gil, just wanted to tell you I have enjoyed reading your posts on this thread-interesting. As are all the posts from all the responders

Scotty, those Bitterroots certainly are working for you, nice.
 
:grin: Okay.

Ya, I did use a 175 gr Nosler Partition from a 7mm Rem mag for my bull elk 16 years ago. The rifle actually shot the 175 Sierra SPBT a bit more accurately, but I did hedge my bet and opt for the Nosler. It performed superbly. In and out, through the chest. Dead elk within a few steps.

BTW - I think I've finally figured out these danged cow elk here! Where they are, and even how to get to them! This hunt has been more challenging than anticipated. I hope I've got it figured out, my tag is only good for a few more days.

Still using the .30-06 and the 165 Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets at about 2900 fps.

Hope to have report showing some elk steaks soon...

Guy
 
I'm sure I'll continue to chase myself around in circles, but I've passed through a phase of wanting lots of kinetic energy and figuring out as many stats on a bullet/load as I can and come to a point where I concern myself with a few things:

1- Am I confident in the bullet's ability to fully penetrate on a broadside shoulder shot on the game I'm targeting, and am I confident in it to reach and penetrate/destroy the vitals on a quartering-toward shot?

2- Does the load in question give me sufficient precision to hit the vitals of the animal, with room for error, at the distances I'm likely to shoot?

3- Does the load deliver sufficient velocity to properly expand the bullet out to the longest ranges I am likely to shoot?

Satisfy those three things, and I feel good about what I'm using.

I've long since stopped caring much about kinetic energy. Yeah, I know, it's there and it means something, but my view is that destroyed vital organ tissue is what kills animals, and that ain't happenin' until a bullet goes through said tissue. If I can put the bullet through vital tissue and make a significant wound channel as it goes through, I've got my animal, barring unusual circumstances.
 
Cheyenne,

I did own a Browning 348 Win for a short period 20 some years ago. Loved the rifle, but was having issues finding brass, bullets (Hornady) and ammo for it at the time. Someone offered me more than I paid for it, so it went to a new owner who was willing to take on the challenges at that time, and has been very happy with it. I have had an opportunity to purchase another 348 in a Grade IV, but since I hunt with all of my rifles, thought that it would be a shame to ding or damage such a beautiful rifle by using it on horseback, atv or in the truck and then in the bush. I couldn't bring myself to do that to that rifle. I would have liked to harvest game with it, as I love hunting in the dark timber with leveractions!

I replaced it a while later with the BLR in 358 and have not regretted it, as their is a better selection of bullets for the 358. And I really like the detachable magazine. To date the Speer Hot Cor 220 FP at approx 2210 fps out if the 20" bbl has taken moose, several elk, and black bear (all double lung shots) and has been my back up rifle for guiding, bowhunting, fishing, camping, horseback riding and atv'ing, and backing up other hunters for years.
 
tddeangelo":2z13nd9l said:
Scotty, do you know what the MV was on that recovered 180PT you showed above?

Just curious.

2950-3000 Tom. Bills been shooting it for 40 years or better. That load has probably taken more elk in its life than I can hope to kill with all my stuff combined in my lifetime!
 
Guy Miner":3pb1ksxk said:
:grin: Okay.

Ya, I did use a 175 gr Nosler Partition from a 7mm Rem mag for my bull elk 16 years ago. The rifle actually shot the 175 Sierra SPBT a bit more accurately, but I did hedge my bet and opt for the Nosler. It performed superbly. In and out, through the chest. Dead elk within a few steps.

BTW - I think I've finally figured out these danged cow elk here! Where they are, and even how to get to them! This hunt has been more challenging than anticipated. I hope I've got it figured out, my tag is only good for a few more days.

Still using the .30-06 and the 165 Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets at about 2900 fps.

Hope to have report showing some elk steaks soon...

Guy

Guy, I would hunt elk with the 165 BT in an 06 without question. I've seen enough recovered by you all that I know it would do the work. The 165 AB is also VERY impressive to me.

My point to it all isn't what will kill perfect elk, it's what will kill elk on harder angles. I've made a couple bad shots to bad wind calls and I believe having the tough bullet that broke bones helped a lot in me being able to get back on them to finish them before they were able to move far and incurring a rodeo.

I'm probably the only one here who's put a bad shot on an animal though :lol:
 
SJB358":2jsqczz7 said:
I'm probably the only one here who's put a bad shot on an animal though :lol:

Right... :grin: Ya, I never botched a shot. Ever. Well, maybe. Umm... :mrgreen:

Guy
 
Guy Miner":2405obmx said:
SJB358":2405obmx said:
I'm probably the only one here who's put a bad shot on an animal though :lol:

Right... :grin: Ya, I never botched a shot. Ever. Well, maybe. Umm... :mrgreen:

Guy

I said that totally tongue in cheek Guy towards our whole group here as we're pretty honest brokers.
 
Guy Miner":23m07f7d said:
SJB358":23m07f7d said:
I'm probably the only one here who's put a bad shot on an animal though :lol:

Right... :grin: Ya, I never botched a shot. Ever. Well, maybe. Umm... :mrgreen:

Guy
Well - Gee - Gosh - Maybe :? Is my nose getting any longer yet :?: :roll: :lol:
 
Guy Miner":2kso1koy said:
SJB358":2kso1koy said:
I'm probably the only one here who's put a bad shot on an animal though :lol:

Right... :grin: Ya, I never botched a shot. Ever. Well, maybe. Umm... :mrgreen:

Guy

Funnily enough, Guy, I was ready to confess my own guilt. Fortunately, I won't have to do so since Scotty took the fall. :mrgreen:
 
truck driver":1te9zmb6 said:
Scotty are those North Fork bullets any better than the Nosler Partition in .358 225gr?

Better is relative. I don't think so, I think the NF's would probably make a little bigger wound channel but you'd have to kill a whole lot of animals to probably tell the difference.

Mike, I don't mind admitting fault, a fella who hasn't botched a shot or two probably hasn't done a whole lot of hunting. It's all in the odds. :lol:
 
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