Food for thought

[ShadeTree]

I still got them Rem 200gr Cl and you still got that RL26 Dan.

Yep!

 

[BradMT]

Shootability, shot placement and bullet construction trump headstamps. The other day a friend here was talking to a local outfitter that runs bison hunts on a famous local ranch. They have taken around 25 head a year for many years. He said the cartridge that stands out for the quickest kills, with fewest shots is the 308 Win, yet most hunters show up with some sort of magnum. And yet, based on comments here, I'd guess most don't view the 308 as ideal for a 2000lb animal?

Killing just isn't that hard. A good bullet in the right spot is what makes a cartridge "ideal."

 

[KinleyWater]

Lefty, I agree. The Nosler Partition in particular in my opinion all these years later, is still the premium bullet by which all others are measured when it comes to producing both immediate internal trauma and penetration.
The bear shot with the 6mm was average size...........was hit 6 times if I remember correctly, and was shot with the sierra 100 gr BTSP. A soft and frangible bullet. A really good bullet for whitetail, but for toughness and penetration not nearly in the same league as the Sierra PH or Rem Core Lokt, etc.

The bear shot with the 243 was a large bear........it was hit 11 times total. I will not say what bullet was being used as I cannot confidently say now, but obviously not a optimum bullet even in C&C design.

The bear shot with the 7 RM was also a larger bear. It was hit 7 times. The 139 hornady IL was used. Nothing wrong with that bullet, but at close range and at 7RM speeds on a bear that dressed out well over 300 lbs and on a day where it rained all day, it was asked to do something beyond it's design.

I've thought about this very thing even before this topic came up. In something like a 308 or 30-06 there are C&C bullets that I'd have more than enough confidence in to handle a large black bear effectively. But I also know using that same bullet on a behind the shoulder lung shot whitetail, would be far from ideal.

There would be other cartridges and bullets that could straddle a large span of body weights and toughness of animals, but for me within it's effective range the 35 Remington I use accomplishes both with one bullet. I've seen it's effectiveness on whitetail, not black bear, but have talked to others that used them to kill bear and they had high praise for it.

Nathan Foster says of bullets like the .358, 180 Speer FP, that with it's low sectional density of .201 it should not penetrate like a 180 gr .308 Sierra PH or Speer HC, with a S.D. of .271, but yet it does.

I have shot exactly on black bear in my life - so, consider the sample size. Load was a 250 grain Speer HC out of my Whelen. It killed the bear very, very effectively, but it did not STOP the bear. As I said in my write up of the hunt, I felt as if the bullet was too tough for the animal, and would have preferred something to impart more shock on impact. Of course, my bear was not 400 pounds, no even close. Had it been, I am confident that load would have still killed the bear 100%.

 

[Charlie-NY]

Shootability, shot placement and bullet construction trump headstamps. The other day a friend here was talking to a local outfitter that runs bison hunts on a famous local ranch. They have taken around 25 head a year for many years. He said the cartridge that stands out for the quickest kills, with fewest shots is the 308 Win, yet most hunters show up with some sort of magnum. And yet, based on comments here, I'd guess most don't view the 308 as ideal for a 2000lb animal?

Killing just isn't that hard. A good bullet in the right spot is what makes a cartridge "ideal."

I'd be curious to know what would make a .308win a better buffalo cartridge than a 300win-mag or a 338mag. I shot a buffalo right in the crease with a 260gr Partition from a 375Ruger and he didn't even flinch. A second 260gr in the crease, but from the opposite side, made him shudder a bit. The buffalo fell over when he was good and ready. I recovered both Partition bullets in the off-side hide. They were perfectly mushroomed.

 

[BradMT]

I'd be curious to know what would make a .308win a better buffalo cartridge than a 300win-mag or a 338mag. I shot a buffalo right in the crease with a 260gr Partition from a 375Ruger and he didn't even flinch. A second 260gr in the crease, but from the opposite side, made him shudder a bit. The buffalo fell over when he was good and ready. I recovered both Partition bullets in the off-side hide. They were perfectly mushroomed.

Because a 308 is far more shootable to most people than a 300 or 338 WM... energy doesn't kill, shot placement does.

I've taken elk with everything from the 7-08 to the 338 WM. Hit right, they all died - a cartridge's shape and capacity is the least of the killing equation...

 

[ShadeTree]

I have shot exactly on black bear in my life - so, consider the sample size. Load was a 250 grain Speer HC out of my Whelen. It killed the bear very, very effectively, but it did not STOP the bear. As I said in my write up of the hunt, I felt as if the bullet was too tough for the animal, and would have preferred something to impart more shock on impact. Of course, my bear was not 400 pounds, no even close. Had it been, I am confident that load would have still killed the bear 100%.

Don't doubt really that the 250 HC is, or could be somewhat too tough on a smaller black bear. That bullet is widely touted as being used and having a reliable record as a good bullet for moose, despite not being a premium design.

On the other end of the spectrum, the bear I cited with the 139 Hornady IL's, those bullets at magnum speeds, close range, and on a largish bear that was sopping wet, and with heavy fat, failed to even enter the body cavity. Pretty much just kept knocking it down and clubbing it using those bullets until it stayed down enough to finish it off. When they skinned it out not a single bullet made it inside the body. One of those deals where that bullet out of a 7-08 might of faired better in that circumstance.

That bear didn't care one bit that magnum was stamped on the cartridge head. Gotta have the right bullet for the speed it's hitting at, and the size animal you're dealing with.

 

[filmjunkie4ever]

Don't doubt really that the 250 HC is, or could be somewhat too tough on a smaller black bear. That bullet is widely touted as being used and having a reliable record as a good bullet for moose, despite not being a premium design.

On the other end of the spectrum, the bear I cited with the 139 Hornady IL's, those bullets at magnum speeds, close range, and on a largish bear that was sopping wet, and with heavy fat, failed to even enter the body cavity. Pretty much just kept knocking it down and clubbing it using those bullets until it stayed down enough to finish it off. When they skinned it out not a single bullet made it inside the body. One of those deals where that bullet out of a 7-08 might of faired better in that circumstance.

That bear didn't care one bit that magnum was stamped on the cartridge head. Gotta have the right bullet for the speed it's hitting at, and the size animal you're dealing with.

I also place equal importance on bullet performance as with shot placement. A bullet that doesn’t perform well for the intended species won’t penetrate to “the right spot” despite good placement.

 

[KinleyWater]

Don't doubt really that the 250 HC is, or could be somewhat too tough on a smaller black bear. That bullet is widely touted as being used and having a reliable record as a good bullet for moose, despite not being a premium design.

On the other end of the spectrum, the bear I cited with the 139 Hornady IL's, those bullets at magnum speeds, close range, and on a largish bear that was sopping wet, and with heavy fat, failed to even enter the body cavity. Pretty much just kept knocking it down and clubbing it using those bullets until it stayed down enough to finish it off. When they skinned it out not a single bullet made it inside the body. One of those deals where that bullet out of a 7-08 might of faired better in that circumstance.

That bear didn't care one bit that magnum was stamped on the cartridge head. Gotta have the right bullet for the speed it's hitting at, and the size animal you're dealing with.

That is unfortunate, and reminds me of a nearly failed slaughtering of a sheep I witnessed as a teen. The gentlemen in question decided to use a 22LR from a rifle to kill said animal, a ram. His first shot struck it masterfully in the forehead. The ram responded my shaking its head a couple of times and bouncing on its forelegs. A second shot to the forehead had a similar outcome. When the ram turned sideways, he shot it three times in the vitals and after about a minute, or so, it succumbed. In the butchering, I took a look at the head and found the two rounds there did not penetrate the skull. I don't know the brand of ammo used, but I did learn that shot placement is king, but using the right tool is queen.

 

[salmonchaser]

I'm kind of a believer in the theory of using enough gun. My bull this year emphasized the point for me. Best guess he was bull #46. Angled slightly away, behind the near shoulder the bullet would have hit the leading edge of the front. One of us wiggled and I hit him right through the rear leg bone then up through the diaphragm ultimately exiting the brisket on the far side. I'm not convinced much short of 300 mag would have dropped that bull. I was using. 338 Jarrett that's killed north of 20 elk.
Certainly a light gun would have failed. Shooter error, perhaps, but I've had an awful lot of training with a rifle and killed a lot of elk, they aren't paper targets and they tend to move. I also guided several years and packed right at 30 elk. Again and as stated a cooperative elk will die with out too much trouble but light cartridges lead to most my tracking jobs. The Creedmore left me unimpressed. Twice the elk leaned slightly forward as the trigger was pressed. Bullet hit bone, one was a 140 AccuBond, the rodeo started. In both those cases the shooters were experienced and good marksmen.
Nothing makes up for shitty shooting, I've tracked elk shot with all manner after being gut shot.
I will probably never hunt elk with anything lighter than a 7/08, we will see.

 

[salmonchaser]

I also killed a grizzly with a .22, shot him right between the eyes as he came into the tent. I was 6 or 7 That Mom and dad were shooting as was dads hunting buddy did not, in my mind, alter the fact I had killed that bear. The slug was recoverd from the gristle on the bears nose.

 

[ShadeTree]

I'm kind of a believer in the theory of using enough gun.

When it comes to large or tough animals, yes sir. There's a group that does a lot of gang hunting both whitetail and bear. Have hunted with them at times in yrs past. Over the yrs they've killed a lot of bear. Heard more than one of the long time members of that group make the remark that they've seen plenty of guys come back the following yr with a bigger gun and heavier bullet when it comes to bear hunting. A large bear, amped up and on the move from being pushed, gets hit anywhere from 1 to several times and keeps right on rolling like never hit straight into the next guy who puts him down. No fun watching your whiz bang 243 have virtually no effect and lose a rare opportunity at a good bear. Ideas on what is enough gun and bullet can soon change.

 

[bob_dobalina]

I also killed a grizzly with a .22, shot him right between the eyes as he came into the tent. I was 6 or 7 That Mom and dad were shooting as was dads hunting buddy did not, in my mind, alter the fact I had killed that bear. The slug was recoverd from the gristle on the bears nose.

What?! We need a longer story here!

 

[salmonchaser]

What?! We need a longer story here!

1960 or 61 Dad was stationed at Ft. Wainwright, Alaska just outside of Fairbanks. Heaven on earth as far as I was concerned.
One of our favorite places to go was Paxson lakes for camping and fishing, some hunting as well. It was a pretty wild place back then.
Another officer and his wife had joined us, I recall she was only 18 or 19 and struggling with life in Alaska. We were all set up in one of those big, center pole, Army tents.
We had seen bears around the lake in the past but never had any serious trouble.
The morning in question I was awakened by my mother and a bit of low talking and preparation by my dad, three kids and the young lady were pulled to the middle of the tent. I knew the sounds of a grizzly huffing around the outside of the tent. I grabbed up my Stevens youth Rolling block 22, loaded it and just as my mother started to scold me the bear came through the door flap. The resulting barrage delivered by dad, mom and Fredy rolled the bear over backward and out of the tent, oh and me too.
What I remember most vividly is my dad, moving with great agility, following the bear out while he kept shooting, and that a couple loads of buckshot literally tore the bears face off. I really don't remember who had which gun but I do know we never went off base without an 06 a 12gauge and my 22.
Come to think of it I'm not sure how Dad would have found a little 22slug in all that mess, he was big on discipline and positive reinforcement, do the right thing, best dad ever!

 

[bob_dobalina]

1960 or 61 Dad was stationed at Ft. Wainwright, Alaska just outside of Fairbanks. Heaven on earth as far as I was concerned.
One of our favorite places to go was Paxson lakes for camping and fishing, some hunting as well. It was a pretty wild place back then.
Another officer and his wife had joined us, I recall she was only 18 or 19 and struggling with life in Alaska. We were all set up in one of those big, center pole, Army tents.
We had seen bears around the lake in the past but never had any serious trouble.
The morning in question I was awakened by my mother and a bit of low talking and preparation by my dad, three kids and the young lady were pulled to the middle of the tent. I knew the sounds of a grizzly huffing around the outside of the tent. I grabbed up my Stevens youth Rolling block 22, loaded it and just as my mother started to scold me the bear came through the door flap. The resulting barrage delivered by dad, mom and Fredy rolled the bear over backward and out of the tent, oh and me too.
What I remember most vividly is my dad, moving with great agility, following the bear out while he kept shooting, and that a couple loads of buckshot literally tore the bears face off. I really don't remember who had which gun but I do know we never went off base without an 06 a 12gauge and my 22.
Come to think of it I'm not sure how Dad would have found a little 22slug in all that mess, he was big on discipline and positive reinforcement, do the right thing, best dad ever!

That's an incredible story! Good shooting! Thanks for sharing.

 

[Ridge_Runner]

Not just the bullet, nor the cartridge, knowing what that bullet does at that velocity when meeting certain resistance means a lot, have killed. stuff with cartridge/bullet combo's that most folks would deem inadequate and got along great, one example is a 6mm ppc and a 55 gr BT. the lower velocity of the ppc helps a varmint bullet penetrate, I might add a few deer on damage permits with a 17 HM2. knowing where to shoot them with this bullet at that velocity goes a long way