H4895 data for 130gr 270WSM?

[Guest]

I checked with Hodgdon, and they don't show any data for H4895 for the 130gr bullet in 270WSM. I'm curious to try it for reduced loads for my son, but I'd like to know more about how it might work. I know the burn rate is too fast, according to Hodgdon, for this combination, but for reduced loads it should be alright. Anybody have any data on this, or want to push it through QuickLoad? I'll be shooting it out of a 22" factory Browning A-Bolt II barrel. The bullet is a 130gr Hornady Spire-Point. Remington cases, and either Federal or CCI primers. Also, would y'all use standard or magnum primers on reduced loads? Hodgdon used magnum primers in their 110gr bullet reduced loads for this chambering, but I suspect a standard primer would ignite what should be about 40-45gr of H4895. Anxious to hear everyone's thoughts.

 

[SJB358]

Why not stick with a 110gr AB or other 100-110gr bullet and use the H4895? Just wondering, it will be interesting to see how it goes for you though. I would think a 110AB would be pretty sweet at around 2700FPS and kill deer alot further than most would think. Heck, that is already probably faster than the 6.8SPC.

I imagine since H4895 is pretty optimal for reduced loads, you could run the same load with the 130 and be fine. Not saying I am not wrong.....

I think the problem will come with case sealing. 270WSM brass is pretty thick and I am not sure it will seal in the chamber until it reaches a fairly high pressure? Again, don't know, but I will be watching this close as the 270WSM with reduced loads would be sweet for my son. Scotty

 

[Guest]

I hear you, Scotty, on all points. The only two reasons I'm even asking about this is, first, I have a pile of Hornady 130gr SP's (several hundred), so it would be cheap to do compared to the cost of a couple of boxes of 110gr Accubonds (which were scarce the last time I tried to order them). Second, I would eventually get him moved to the 130gr, and this would mean only having to change powders when the time comes, rather than start load work all over again. I suspect it will be several years before he's ready for full charge loads, so we could get away with the 130's for a long time on white-tails before we exceed their structural limits.

Anyway, I'm still likely to go the 110gr AccuBond route if I can find any. Haven't looked in a few weeks so maybe they're out there now.

 

[SJB358]

I got you. Wasn't trying to quarterback you at all. I know that bullets are not cheap and that makes alot of sense. Seems like any of the others like the Sierra, Hornady or Speers regular cup and core 110gr'ers would be pretty sweet at 2600-2700FPS. I think the Abond would be cool, but those other cup and cores would likely hammer deer pretty well and probably expand pretty good. I would love to see some expansion tests in some milk jugs with the 110's at your FPS. I would bet Varmint type bullets would be pretty decent also, since they are so much slower than intended for. Kinda like shooting a varmint bullet at pistol speeds, really changes the dynamic and makes them a great bullet.

Now you have my wheels turning. My son is coming of age to hunt bigger than deer and an upsized rifle would be awesome. I like the 270WSM alot, just not sure how it would handle reduced loads. Might be worth trying some out, just to see what happens. I would like for him to have a 7WSM or 300WSM and be able to shoot reduced loads till he is larger.

I know 6mm Rem bought his boy that EW 300WSM and man, I can't think of a better rifle for a young hunter. Never need to buy him another rifle. Scotty

 

[Guest]

I didn't feel "quarterbacked" at all, Scotty. I'd ask the same question if we were reversed. I will definitely post some results as I have them. I hope to get out to the range very soon - I need a range day!!!

I've thought about using the lighter construction stuff for practice and getting some Accubonds for hunting. I hadn't thought about using the lighter stuff for deer at reduced velocities. In fact, I bet my son would love to punch some milk jugs for fun at the range. Just need to get my sawhorses together and grab some scrap lumber!

I'm going to set up some targets, but also some small balloons taped to a could of wires strung between two tomato stakes, for he and I to shoot at just for fun. Hit one, know immediately. And balloons about 5-6" in diameter would be great practice to be sure you can hit deer vitals. Got to keep it fun at the range so he stays focused. Although, he was pretty focused on our last outing with his bolt gun in 22lr. He must have went through 300rds while I was shooting centerfire. Worked out well because we were on opposite sides of a T-shaped bench since he shoots left handed. Shooting shoulder to shoulder was nice, fun, and allowed me to shoot but also keep a close eye on his safety protocol. He was flawless!

I figure about what you do in regards to getting him this rifle. A 270WSM will do anything he wants (including elk), though for elk I'd likely make it a special deal (since it will be special if we get to go) and get him a bigger gun anyway!

 

[Mountain Goat]

AA 5744 is a great powder for reduced 27WSM loads. You can actually load the 130's up to over 3000fps with this powder if needed.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Dubyam, I have been massaging the numbers on this and think that you could go down to 46.0 gr of H4895 for approx. 2750 fps and pressures would be about 44 KSI-CUP for the .270 WSM with 130 gr (Hornady or?) bullets. I believe that this would be at about the same (or less) than .250 Savage (120 gr) recoil (in a heavier gun than the Mod 99). The pressures are still high enough to be safe and the bullets should expand to 200+ yards certainly. Accuracy may be marginal but?

 

[Guest]

OT3, when you say you've been massaging the numbers, do you mean via QL, a Powley Computer, or some other method? (As an aside, I wish I had a Powley slide rule - it would be great for stuff like this.)

I know Hodgdon lists the 110gr with 40gr H4895 as their "youth load" so I'm pretty comfortable reducing charge below the 90% mark of normal start charges. But I don't have any base data to work from, thus this post.

Just figuring a little on the recoil side of things, with the charge and velocity you indicated, in my son's rifle, he'd see about 13.5-14lbs of recoil. For comparison, that's about 35-40% more recoil than the 9.5-10lbs he'd see with 110gr bullets going the same velocity. I think I'll look into some 110gr stuff and see what I can find for cheap. Maybe just use 130gr stuff for hunting season? Who knows. I have to do something soon so he can shoot it, though. I'm about to pop waiting to give it to him!

 

[Oldtrader3]

I found an old Hodgdon Manual (#25) and extrapolated those numbers for H4895 back for the .264WM/120 gr and the .270 Wea Mag/130 gr for H2O capacities vis a vis the .270 WSM. Then I looked on the Hodgdon web site and broke down fps by pressure and velocity per grain of powder the loads shown for (IMR) 4895 in the .270 WSM and extrapolated those downward. My Sierra software does not show any powder faster than H4350. One thing is for sure, they won't be hot loads! No worry about pressure or velocity.

You might consider making some loads with TiteGroup (or 4198) and the 130 gr .270 WSM. You can get close to 7-30 Waters with velocities (2200-2400) but recoil is still going to be about that of the 250 Savage. TiteGroup is not sensitive to case position and therefore works well and burns uniformly for light loads. I used some TiteGroup for my .340 Bee with 200 gr bullets at 2000 fps and they shot great with little noise and nearly no recoil.

 

[SJB358]

I can't imagine too much recoil from a 110 at 2700 or so out of the WSM. Heck, again, the rifle is heavy enough and with a decent recoil pad, I bet he would enjoy shooting it. Seems like it would be a very pleasant shooting rifle/load.

Again, the only thing I am wondering is is there will be enough pressure to get case expansion and seal the chamber. It may be a moot point and work fine, but I have ran into issues when not running it warm enough, but that was with much slower powders and heavier bullets. Faster powders and lighter bullets might be the ticket.

Either way, it sounds like a great plan, and I am following this one pretty close. He has a 243 he shoots really well. His next rifle will be his elk rifle. I wouldn't have any issues with him taking elk with the 270WSM and good bullets. It might not be my preferred rifle, but it does have plenty for elk. Scotty

 

[Guest]

I'll surely keep you all posted on the results.

As for recoil, you're looking at identical recoil in a 110gr @2700 to what your son is shooting in his 243Win, Scotty - unless he's only shooting varmint loads. A 100gr 243 load at 2900fps has about 10lbs of recoil. For elk, you could go to a 165/168gr monolith like the E-Tip/TTSX/GMX and likely get a 200yd elk gun with recoil in the 15-18lbs range, give or take a bit. I'm just guessing there, but it's going to be close to that, from a -06 or maybe even a 300WSM.

My son is about to finish school, and if his grades hold up, I'm going to give him the rifle right after school is out. Not so much as a reward, but I also don't want him to jack around in school and my actions reinforce that behavior. I think he's going to be alright on his grades, though - A's and B's.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Cartridge : .270 Win. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .277, 130, Nosler BalTip 27130
Useable Case Capaci: 60.846 grain H2O = 3.951 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.053% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-10.5 76 42.50 2674 2064 42572 10498 98.9 1.249
-09.5 77 43.00 2701 2106 43831 10602 99.1 1.231
-08.4 78 43.50 2728 2148 45122 10701 99.3 1.214
-07.4 78 44.00 2755 2191 46446 10797 99.5 1.197
-06.3 79 44.50 2782 2233 47803 10889 99.6 1.181
-05.3 80 45.00 2808 2276 49196 10977 99.7 1.165
-04.2 81 45.50 2835 2319 50624 11061 99.8 1.149
-03.2 82 46.00 2861 2363 52089 11141 99.9 1.134
-02.1 83 46.50 2887 2406 53592 11217 100.0 1.119
-01.1 84 47.00 2913 2449 55133 11289 100.0 1.104
+00.0 85 47.50 2939 2493 56714 11356 100.0 1.090 ! Near Maximum !
+01.1 86 48.00 2965 2537 58336 11421 100.0 1.075 ! Near Maximum !
+02.1 86 48.50 2990 2581 59999 11486 100.0 1.061 ! Near Maximum !
+03.2 87 49.00 3015 2625 61706 11550 100.0 1.048 ! Near Maximum !
+04.2 88 49.50 3041 2669 63457 11614 100.0 1.034 ! Near Maximum !
+05.3 89 50.00 3066 2713 65254 11677 100.0 1.021 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 85 47.50 2972 2549 59437 11237 100.0 1.066 ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 85 47.50 2902 2431 53985 11458 99.8 1.115


This should get you in the vicinity.

 

[SJB358]

AS, great data- thanks for posting that. I wouldn't mind loading up some mild 130's for my boy to try out. Scotty

 

[Guest]

A-S, once again, thanks for the data! I'm thinking with the almost 1k of these Hornady 130gr I have on hand, I'd be smart to start him with them. I'm a little concerned about the recoil - 12-13lbs as opposed to 9.5-10lbs with 110gr, but I think I'll let him try some out at 43gr and see what happens. The good news is, a 130gr @ 2700fps should be plenty for white-tails and we can move the power up to 3100-3200 later on with something like MagPro or such.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Dub, I have every confidence you boy will do just fine with the 130gr bullets at 2700 FPS.
One of my starter loads is 54gr of H4831 behind a 130gr Nosler Solid Base. With a good recoil pad it's a nice mild shooting load. At least it's mild compared to the 58grs of H4831 that dad started me with at age 11.

You idea looks interesting as well. My daughter just turned 10, I might have to see how it shoots out my rifle.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Just to clarify I posted data for the .270 WINCHESTER.

Where you looking for WSM data??

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Here's the data for .270 WSM

Cartridge : .270 WSM
Bullet : .277, 130, Hornady SP 2730
Useable Case Capaci: 74.396 grain H2O = 4.830 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.860 inch = 72.64 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.98% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-09.8 67 46.00 2650 2027 38256 11098 99.0 1.352
-08.8 68 46.50 2674 2064 39225 11201 99.2 1.336
-07.8 69 47.00 2698 2101 40214 11301 99.4 1.320
-06.9 69 47.50 2721 2138 41224 11398 99.5 1.304
-05.9 70 48.00 2745 2175 42254 11492 99.7 1.288
-04.9 71 48.50 2769 2213 43305 11583 99.8 1.273
-03.9 71 49.00 2792 2250 44378 11670 99.8 1.258
-02.9 72 49.50 2815 2288 45472 11754 99.9 1.243
-02.0 73 50.00 2838 2326 46589 11835 100.0 1.228
-01.0 74 50.50 2861 2363 47728 11912 100.0 1.214
+00.0 74 51.00 2884 2401 48890 11986 100.0 1.200
+01.0 75 51.50 2907 2439 50076 12057 100.0 1.186
+02.0 76 52.00 2930 2477 51285 12128 100.0 1.172
+02.9 77 52.50 2952 2515 52519 12199 100.0 1.159
+03.9 77 53.00 2974 2553 53778 12269 100.0 1.146
+04.9 78 53.50 2996 2592 55063 12339 100.0 1.133 ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 3% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 3% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 74 51.00 2917 2456 51102 11875 100.0 1.174
Data for burning rate decreased by 3% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 74 51.00 2848 2341 46666 12075 99.8 1.227


It looks like 47-47.5 grains should get you in the 2700 FPS range. At a 68% load density, I wouldn't want to go any lighter. I ran this with the Hornady flat base. It should be a great kids load.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the clarification, A-S. I was, in fact, after WSM data. But the point is exactly the same - kids can shoot lighter bullets in standard chamberings (if you handload) and not have to graduate up from a 243Win when it comes time to hunt bigger stuff than small white-tails. And they won't be range-limited except by Dad (or whomever is mentoring them) as they're shooting at deer and such, either. I love my 243Win, but as a one-rifle battery, it's limited to deer and smaller. For a kid, being familiar with a single rifle's function and operation, is a great gift.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Going from a 130gr bullet at 2700, to a 150gr bullet at 3100 gives your son alot of room for growth, with no need to change rifles.