Ha, ah! There IS a difference in seating dies.

[NYDAN]

All of my reloading experience (from early 1980's) has been with RCBS dies. I have never had an issue with them, but I never had anything to compare to. Now that I have hopes of shooting "bug holes" I have gotten more fussy - as if I needed to be more anal than I already am.

I had noticed that when I just barely seated a bullet with the RCBS seating die that it didn't always look straight. Once I pushed the bullet deeper into the case neck, it seemed to straighten out. I never checked my reloaded cartridges with a concentricity gauge. So, I don't really know if they were concentric or not.

On a hunch I invested in a Redding Competition seating die. Of course, I had to take it all apart to see how it worked. Then, of course I had to take the RCBS die apart to see the differences. The RCBS was, of course, more simplictic and the Redding was more complicated. That was expected.

Then I compared what RCBS calls the "seater plug". This is the part that actually touches the bullet and pushes it into the case. The angle of taper in the hole (where the tip of the bullet goes) was SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT between the two brands.

When I put a bullet into the seater plug (while disassembled) of the Redding Die the bullet seemed to self-align in the seater plug. The bullet did not "wobble" in the seater plug. The contact area between the seater plug and the bullet seemed to be "near" the maximum diameter of the ID of the plug.

However, when I put a bullet into the seater plug of the RCBS die, the bullet did NOT self-align. Although the bullet tip did not bottom out in the seater plug, it felt as though it had. The bullet could "wobble" in the seater plug. The contact area between the seater plug and the bullet seemed to be deep inside the seater plug - near the tip of the bullet.

These difference in how the bullet fit in the seater plug where noticable with the 140 gr. AB. However, they were very noticiable with the 150 gr. ABLR. In fact, I had to really "study it out" to be sure the point of the 150 gr. ABLR wasn't bottoming out in the RCBS seater plug.

I suspect that with less tapered bullets the differences between the dies would be less noticable.

Now, I think I understand why some of my barely seated bullets had not looked straight. The bullets weren't aligned as well as I assumed they would be.

Now I have to load up some cartridges with the Redding seating die and see if there is any real difference in accuracy.

 

[DrMike]

You can buy VLD plugs to address this problem. However, few know that the standard plugs do not align VLD or sharply angled bullets.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Yep...but there is one standard plug that will work...oddly enough, its in Lee dies...at least that is true of their 30-06 dies.

I also use Redding dies...I have the National Match set, well worth the money.

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[Tobey284]

wow, I'm one of those guys that doesnt know about vld plugs. Had not even considered it. I too use rcbs almost exclusively (without trouble) although i have gotten into the habit of spinning cases as i seat the bullets based on the theory (possibly misguided) that it promotes better alignment. This would explain my absolutely wretched results with 150 ablrs in both of my 280's (same dies,different rifles, same pathetic scatterings) which are otherwise very accurate rifles. First time I had really messed with a vld style bullet, didn't lose much sleep over it as i have many accurate options for those rifles, thank you for posting this, I really had not considered that it might be something as simple as an alignment issue

 

[Guy Miner]

Changing dies to Wilson, and seating my bullets really straight, resulted in a notable accuracy increase for my .308 Win, some years back.

Guy

 

[joelkdouglas]

Guy (or anyone else), I haven't had any problems seating 115 VLDs for my 25-06 with a Redding Comp seater. Have you had any problems? Redding does sell a VLD seating stem.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Redding is good, so is Forster. Nearly all of my dies for forming are Forster now as are most of my seating dies, except for carbide RCBS handgun dies.

 

[kraky1]

I had an interesting experience last night. A week ago I made up 10 308 test rounds for a buddys 308 auto loader thats been jamming with factory ammo.
I seated 150 grain bullets with a normally surprisingly accurate hornady seater. This thing does phenominally well with the bullet I used. I was using nosler virgin brass. When I was done about half the rounds had runnout trending towards .005". I marked them and straightened them with the tru tool. Got the runnouts down under .002".
So last night I got a little nervous about the load I picked knowing that nosler brass is pretty thick and limitted in capacity and decided I should drop the charges one grain. I pulled the loads, dumped the powder, reset the neck tension with a lee collet die and re-assembled. For giggles I checked the runnout thinking since it had been corrected it would be pretty much perfect. SURPRISE....the runnout was back exactly as it had been on the first seating. Cases with no index marks had really good runnout. But the cases I had marked for straightening the first time now needed it in EXACTLY THE SAME spot once again.
Not exactly sure what I learned here but apparently it has something to do with the brass. I'll maybe have to look at neck wall consistancy. Bottom line is the seating die appears to have done things in an EXACTLY REPEATABLE and accurate fashion.

 

[BeeTee]

Those with both RCBS and any other "competition" seating die could do a test. Load 10 rounds with one seating die and 10 rounds with the competition seating die. Try to eliminate as many of the variables as possible that might skew the results. Shoot a series of 5-shot groups.

I like the comp seating dies more for their micrometer adjustment and repeatability in bullet seating depth over time (I log mic reading and OAL with a particular bullet).

 

[HomerOz]

G'Day Fella's,

NY Dan, I have been asked similar questions by mates and customers, as in; Will Competition Dies make my rifle more accurate?
In my experience, better quality ammo gives better accuracy but First, you need a very accurate rifle, to notice the difference!!!

If you have a very accurate rifle, one of the ways of confirming which handloads are potentially "More Accurate", is with a Bullet Run-Out gauge!
So which ever brand of reloading dies, assembles the ammo with the least amount of Run-Out "Could" make a firearm more accurate???

Of course, the ultimate confirmation of which reloading dies are best, is a few "Honest" groups, shot at the range!

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

 

[Darkhorse]

Kraky, I use the Hornady seater in 2 calibers. Do I consider it a good seating die? Well, that's why I bought the second one! Of course, I spend a lot of time in case prep and in setting my sizers up to be in alignment with the bore. Without that I believe accuracy will always be so so.
All the groups I have posted are full length sized and seated with the Hornady. I think the results can speak for themselves.
One thing I have noticed, if I just seat in one motion the die leaves a small mark on the bullet. But if I just start the bullet then turn the case about 1/2 way it will leave no mark. So to be concentric I always turn the case a little while seating the bullet. Of course a VLD chamfer helps a lot.
I use the Hornady because I already had die sets from years past and this was the cheapest route to an inline seater.
The next set I buy I would like to try the Forsters. Can't hurt to go with a better set.

 

[sask boy]

Can you order the VLD seating stem from RCBS. I have the ultra seating from Forster for the 270win & 7mm mag so I won't need them for those. But not for my RCBS dies in the 280AI.
Hope that I can just email RCBS & change over.

Blessings,
Dan

 

[Oldtrader3]

With .002 inch total runout on finished, seated bullets, I would not worry a lot about that low amount of runout. I don't think that you will even see it reflected in your groups unless the rifle is a special bench rest rifle. I roll my loaded rounds on a flat, smooth countertop to just gross check concentricity before putting the loads in boxes but do not bother to adjust with .002 or less runout.

 

[Wincheringen]

Those with both RCBS and any other "competition" seating die could do a test. Load 10 rounds with one seating die and 10 rounds with the competition seating die. Try to eliminate as many of the variables as possible that might skew the results. Shoot a series of 5-shot groups.

I like the comp seating dies more for their micrometer adjustment and repeatability in bullet seating depth over time (I log mic reading and OAL with a particular bullet).

I've done it, and the Comp seater does work and improve groups. It also makes it a lot easier to seat bullets in small cartridges like the .204 Ruger. You don't have to go off and buy a comp seater for every cartridge you load for, RCBS sells the guts to convert them over.

 

[BeeTee]

Those with both RCBS and any other "competition" seating die could do a test. Load 10 rounds with one seating die and 10 rounds with the competition seating die. Try to eliminate as many of the variables as possible that might skew the results. Shoot a series of 5-shot groups.

I like the comp seating dies more for their micrometer adjustment and repeatability in bullet seating depth over time (I log mic reading and OAL with a particular bullet).

I've done it, and the Comp seater does work and improve groups. It also makes it a lot easier to seat bullets in small cartridges like the .204 Ruger. You don't have to go off and buy a comp seater for every cartridge you load for, RCBS sells the guts to convert them over.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that even with a very good "hunting" rifle, there won't be enough improvement in accuracy to justify the cost. Sure, a really good hunting rifle and a really good shot who is also a really good handloader will be able to measure the difference - sometimes, but... it's not by much...

In the final analysis, if having better equipment brings more enjoyment to the sport, that alone makes a micrometer equipped "competition bullet seater" worth it. For hardware's sake, barrels and bullets are where the biggest accuracy difference can be seen.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I've done it too...but I made 2 changes at the same time (brass and dies)...so I'm not exactly sure which one made the difference, or a combination of both (most likely).

But I got Lapua brass and Redding National Match dies...and my groups went from .3" at 100 yards to bugholes I couldn't even accurately measure for center to center....looks like one single hole of about 40 caliber...

The difference at 600 yards...before, it was 6-7 inches....after, it is 3-4 inches...that is, on a day with little to no wind.

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