- Oct 30, 2004
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Handgun Stopping Power
- Thread starter FOTIS
- Start date
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
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He makes a comment that summarises the study--a conclusion that is stated repeatedly on this forum.
"What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information."
Certainly a lot of information packed into his study.
"What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information."
Certainly a lot of information packed into his study.
Saw this on YouTube a few months ago. Move past the introduction and listen to the lecture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA
Mortis
Handloader
- Aug 3, 2012
- 367
- 0
Interesting article.... certainly it approaches the concept of One Stop Shoot more openly and honestly then many writers have done in the past.
And it says what I have always said..... bullet placement...bullet placement...bullet placement.
It has been said thru myth or legend, that what made the gunfighters of old such as Hickock, so deadly, was that they took the time to aim before they fired. Shot placement.
I always tell new shooters on the range....practice...practice....and practice. And when you think you are good enough....practice soem more. That handgun you intend to carry needs to be nothing more then an extension of your arm. Train...practice... until it seems natural that it belongs there.
And heaven forbid.....if it has to be used..... the actions will be instinctive and quick. Not thought about and awkward.
Sorry.... preaching to the choir here..... I'll get off my soapbox.
And it says what I have always said..... bullet placement...bullet placement...bullet placement.
It has been said thru myth or legend, that what made the gunfighters of old such as Hickock, so deadly, was that they took the time to aim before they fired. Shot placement.
I always tell new shooters on the range....practice...practice....and practice. And when you think you are good enough....practice soem more. That handgun you intend to carry needs to be nothing more then an extension of your arm. Train...practice... until it seems natural that it belongs there.
And heaven forbid.....if it has to be used..... the actions will be instinctive and quick. Not thought about and awkward.
Sorry.... preaching to the choir here..... I'll get off my soapbox.
Guy Miner
Master Loader
- Apr 6, 2006
- 17,789
- 6,036
Have investigated quite a number of shootings over the years. Many times a handgun won't stop, or even seriously injure someone. Here's some reasons that crop up time and again:
Shot placement. There's a lot of areas on the human body that can be hit without doing major damage or creating a quick stop. A CNS hit is the only reliable instant stopper I've seen.
Bullet construction. A lot of semi-auto guys cling to their FMJ bullets. Even from a .45, they don't tend to do a lot of damage, especially the traditional round-nose ones, moving at sedate velocity. They do penetrate real well, but don't seem to damage a lot of tissue while doing so, and often don't even cause people to slow down... Good hollow points are far more effective, particularly from cartridges say from the 9mm and up in power level.
I've seen a case of a guy taking three hits at close range from a .40 S&W, 180 gr FMJ ammo, all to the torso. He went down, but was right back up and ticked off, quickly.
The worst performers are the little bitty, weak, handguns with FMJ bullets. Those .25's and .380's with a full metal jacket MAY be better than using a big stick... Or not.
Good shot placement. Multiple hits. Good bullets from a reasonably powerful handgun - those all work much better.
Guy
Shot placement. There's a lot of areas on the human body that can be hit without doing major damage or creating a quick stop. A CNS hit is the only reliable instant stopper I've seen.
Bullet construction. A lot of semi-auto guys cling to their FMJ bullets. Even from a .45, they don't tend to do a lot of damage, especially the traditional round-nose ones, moving at sedate velocity. They do penetrate real well, but don't seem to damage a lot of tissue while doing so, and often don't even cause people to slow down... Good hollow points are far more effective, particularly from cartridges say from the 9mm and up in power level.
I've seen a case of a guy taking three hits at close range from a .40 S&W, 180 gr FMJ ammo, all to the torso. He went down, but was right back up and ticked off, quickly.
The worst performers are the little bitty, weak, handguns with FMJ bullets. Those .25's and .380's with a full metal jacket MAY be better than using a big stick... Or not.
Good shot placement. Multiple hits. Good bullets from a reasonably powerful handgun - those all work much better.
Guy
- Nov 4, 2004
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Shot placement is king.
JD338
JD338
meatmachineman
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2012
- 276
- 0
It has been my mindset anyways, that I'll take the gun that works best for what I'm doing or wearing. I have raised an eybrow at myself when conditions dictate that my 380 is best suited and my 40s or 45 are just too big or bulky. That study gives me a little more faith in my choice and reinforces what's been preached... Good bullet selection and shot placement are paramount.
Mortis
Handloader
- Aug 3, 2012
- 367
- 0
Mr Miller makes a good point in his post, but I'd feel remiss in not commenting on it.
First, the author of the article does not mention either bullet type or weight. Only caliber. And I feel comfortable with the fact I'm sure that Mr. Miller did not automatically assume any specific bullet design. I certainly did not, make that assumption.
Next, let's step back a few decades...... the introduction of of Super-Vel. The first high preformance pistol ammunition. Super-Vel did what the commerical ammuniton makers had failed to do.... produce a high velocity hollow point for use by law enforcement.
This force ammunition companies to research and build better handgun ammunition.
Enter Federal Hydra-Shocks. Ammunition designed to provide maximum trauma without over penetration. Except after studies of shootings, especially by LAPD, it was found that Hydra-Shocks were not preforming to specifications.
They were not expanding according to design and over penetration was a problem.
Reason discovered...... when the target was heavily dressed.... the cavity of the bullet would fill with clothing, especially denim, and fail to expand in the body and punch on through. If anyone has Hydra-Shock laying around from the early 1980's and can compare them to current manufacture, they will see a difference.
Now the article is tainted from only the viewpoint of bullet construction. How many of those hits from a 357mag was from 158 grain lead? How many 9mm hits was ball?
But as the author also said...he had no dog in this fight....and to break down the figures further by bullet specification/design, would also slant it accordingly.
Both my Remington-Rand 1911A1 and my Sig220 are loaded with Federal JHP's. But having carried a 1911 in places that still gives folks nightmares, I will never fill underloaded with 230 Ball.
To close my ramblings..... Mr Miller again has made a valid point with his comments.
But as important as what caliber or bullet design a person carries is his ability to use that weapon system in a worst case situation. And if a person is not comfortable with what he has on his hip..... then he is already handicapped.
That last sentence reflects on not only the bullet, but the launcher it resides in.
Thank you for your tolereance......
First, the author of the article does not mention either bullet type or weight. Only caliber. And I feel comfortable with the fact I'm sure that Mr. Miller did not automatically assume any specific bullet design. I certainly did not, make that assumption.
Next, let's step back a few decades...... the introduction of of Super-Vel. The first high preformance pistol ammunition. Super-Vel did what the commerical ammuniton makers had failed to do.... produce a high velocity hollow point for use by law enforcement.
This force ammunition companies to research and build better handgun ammunition.
Enter Federal Hydra-Shocks. Ammunition designed to provide maximum trauma without over penetration. Except after studies of shootings, especially by LAPD, it was found that Hydra-Shocks were not preforming to specifications.
They were not expanding according to design and over penetration was a problem.
Reason discovered...... when the target was heavily dressed.... the cavity of the bullet would fill with clothing, especially denim, and fail to expand in the body and punch on through. If anyone has Hydra-Shock laying around from the early 1980's and can compare them to current manufacture, they will see a difference.
Now the article is tainted from only the viewpoint of bullet construction. How many of those hits from a 357mag was from 158 grain lead? How many 9mm hits was ball?
But as the author also said...he had no dog in this fight....and to break down the figures further by bullet specification/design, would also slant it accordingly.
Both my Remington-Rand 1911A1 and my Sig220 are loaded with Federal JHP's. But having carried a 1911 in places that still gives folks nightmares, I will never fill underloaded with 230 Ball.
To close my ramblings..... Mr Miller again has made a valid point with his comments.
But as important as what caliber or bullet design a person carries is his ability to use that weapon system in a worst case situation. And if a person is not comfortable with what he has on his hip..... then he is already handicapped.
That last sentence reflects on not only the bullet, but the launcher it resides in.
Thank you for your tolereance......
- Thread starter
- #9
- Oct 30, 2004
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Amen!JD338":2kkx5ok5 said:
- Nov 4, 2004
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I have the book Handgun Stopping Power by Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow.
It is filled with a lot of good information.
JD338
It is filled with a lot of good information.
JD338
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 6
This article shows some correlation between caliber size and incapacitation. It also has a degrees of freedom problems for every caliber except maybe 9mm Parabellum. Overall there are no conclusions that this study points to except larger caliber requires with fewer shots, generally, to incapacitate. The other things are accuracy counts as does using .32 caliber of above for defense because the larger the caliber, the better the incapacitation.
There are so many different loadings on the market for each caliber all with their own design claims. I use Hornady Critical Duty with Flexlock HP's. These Flexlock bullets penetrate clothing without being plugged with fabric and still expand to 2x because of the plastic plug in the Hollow Point. If you can get 9 inches of penetration through clothes and 2x bullet expansion with decent MV, you are going to stop most felons with a double tap. That is what this study most emphatically says.
There are so many different loadings on the market for each caliber all with their own design claims. I use Hornady Critical Duty with Flexlock HP's. These Flexlock bullets penetrate clothing without being plugged with fabric and still expand to 2x because of the plastic plug in the Hollow Point. If you can get 9 inches of penetration through clothes and 2x bullet expansion with decent MV, you are going to stop most felons with a double tap. That is what this study most emphatically says.
Dr. Vette
Handloader
- Apr 16, 2012
- 1,480
- 365
