Hornady Cases???

[Poset]

Hi folks. Been reading this forum for some time-- good stuff-- now have a situation: Expander ball siezes in Hornady cases.

Bought a Ruger M77 in 220 Swift (Varmint) a few weeks ago, then bought two boxes of factory ammo- one box Remington, one box Hornady, for break in and initial cases to reload. Also bought a new 3 die set of Redding dies.

Fired the factory rounds, neck sized (normally), and reloaded the cases with a mixed bag of powder and bullets/weights. Two rounds would not chamber - but (carelessly) lost their identity after I broke them down. (I had already decided to full length resize the whole batch.)

At the bench, while FL resizing, a few cases went thru normally and a few were extremely difficult to complete the upstroke (had to disassemble the die and cut off a coulpe of cases). I finally understood the Remington cases were going thru normally, but the Hornadys were all tight. All 20 Rems were fine; I stopped after 10 of the Hornadys.

Salients:
- All cases were between max and trim lengths before and after the FL sizing step. Didn't make note of lengths by brand, just quickly measured each case to insure it was in the range.
- All cases were well lubed.
- No signs of pressure on any cases.
- None of the first reloads were not at max powder charge (- .5 grain minimum).
- Powder was IMR 4831 and IMR 4064
- Bullets were 50 and 55 grain Nosler
- Rem primers in all cases / loads
- Loads were randomly and pretty evenly distributed between the Rem and Hornady cases (although each case and load were recorded).
- Note this was the first use of the FL die.

A friend suggested the die might be incorrectly adjusted, putting a slight crimp on the mouth of the case, making the ball difficult to extract. Possible - but why not the Rems as well??

Thoughts?

 

[Guest]

I'm going to hazard a guess or two here. Possibly the Hornady brass has thicker case & neck walls, and is being sized down tighter because of it. This can also affect case lengthening during sizing. Perhaps, too, the inside of the case necks are not lubed as well as the outside. I usually lube the expander ball in my FL dies to reduce stretch, maybe that would also help. If the wall thickness is the issue, certainly being very well lubed on the inside of the case neck will come into play when expanding. You might try adjusting the die up a little, and see if it still occurs. In fact, that's a good test - ram a piece of brass up, and then place the die in the top of the press, and screw down until you get contact. back the case out, inspect, and re-ram it. Back it out again and see if all is well. Do this until you reproduce the problem, or until you get the case sized properly. Then try the Remington cases and see how they work out.

One thing I try to do is keep all of my brass of the same manufacturer to avoid pressure changes, but it might also help to use all one kind of brass for this situation, too, as you can then adjust the die to work properly for Hornady or Remington if it doesn't work properly for both at one setting.

 

[JD338]

Poset,

Welcome to the forum.
I tend to agree with what dubyam said. Any way you can measure the case thickness at the mouth?

JD338

 

[Poset]

Thanks for the welcome, JD338.

I should have mentioned earlier the downstroke on the press is also extremely difficult - its stand up and lean on the arm to push the ball thru.

I did make one other observation: In the fired brass (not resized) a new ball will not pass thru the neck opening... can't push it thru with my fingers.

Dubyam, I lubed the expander ball and the inside of the case necks (Q-tip) with case lube after cutting off the first case; after a couple of difficult
passes, the second siezed. I'm a little reluctant to run your test at this point - want to try to get a little more information before I work the last few cases.

I did go thru the Redding set up instructions step by step - brought me right back to where I had been.

I don't have the capability to measure the thickness of the neck walls, but a friend may have an appropriate micrometer; may also be able to measure the inside diameterof the fired case. I'll check tomorrow.

I did check the expander ball and shaft: The ball (serrated section) is .214 inches; above the shoulder it measures .222 inches. I don't know what they should be, but for a .224 ball these sound about right (?).

My main concern here is to be certain I'm not making a fundamental error somewhere, and that the new dies are good. If the cases just came from a bad batch, I have no problem throwing them out... just looking for the cause. I reload @ 800 rounds a year, but its one rifle in a caliber with one set of dies - once set up I rarely have to adjust. I also normally stick with the same type brass... only bought the Hornadys to get a different ball weight.

Thanks for the help--

 

[Guest]

You might try measuring the neck thickness with a dial caliper, just in case it's grossly over thick.

Even if you can't do that, I'm inclined to say it is the wall thickness of the Hornady brass, especially if I understand you correctly to be saying that it is tough to run the brass up, and equally tough to pull it back down out of the die. If it were me, I'd put the Hornady brass in a baggie, and drop it in a drawer. If you get access to a mic and can measure the neck thickness, then you can verify it for sure. Otherwise, if the Remington brass works, and shoots well, you are alright to shoot it. I shoot a lot of Remington brass in my rifles, without much complaint, and in some instances, with outstanding accuracy. Most of the time, it is with good accuracy, by the way.

If I'm misinterpreting your statements, let me know, but at this point, I'd redshirt that Hornady brass until you can get an MRI, so to speak.

 

[Poset]

Agree. FL sized some new Rem brass - no problems - so will put the Hornadys in the curiosity file.

I have a friend who can mic both the inside of the case mouths and neck walls - just to satisfy my curiosity. I won't get results for about three weeks, but no rush.

Thanks for the insights--

 

[JD338]

Let us know what you find out.

JD338

 

[Poset]

Got the results of the case neck measurements.

Case walls at the mouth of the neck is pretty consistent (his best micrometers are at his work, so used an older set which may not be totally accurate, but will measure consistently).

New Rem cases (not sized): .0135
Resized Hornady: .015
Unresuzed Hornady: .018

My friend is a reloader and a mechanical engineer; its his opinion the slight difference in wall thickness is not enough to be the problem.

He also measured the ID and OD of the necks of the three sets of cases - similarly consistent results, same conclusion.

Best guess now is the metal in the cases is brittle - not flexible enough to resize easily... probably a fluke.

 

[JD338]

I concur with your friend, shouldn't make it that difficult to resize.
What kind of case lube are you using and how much are you using?

JD338

 

[Poset]

RCBS case lube. After narrowing the problem to the Hornady cases: Coated the inside of the Hornady necks with a Q-tip after the first couple seized; also put it on the expander ball. The next two cases were easier, but still much too tight, then another seized.

Ordinarily I use mica on the necks, RCBS on the body (roll them on the pad, dip the necks), which is what I was doing when the first cases seized - and the same way I lubed the Remington cases.

 

[alpinecrick]

RCBS case lube. After narrowing the problem to the Hornady cases: Coated the inside of the Hornady necks with a Q-tip after the first couple seized; also put it on the expander ball. The next two cases were easier, but still much too tight, then another seized.

Ordinarily I use mica on the necks, RCBS on the body (roll them on the pad, dip the necks), which is what I was doing when the first cases seized - and the same way I lubed the Remington cases.

I was going to ask the same question. A lot of lubes will work for "light duty" resizing, but for resizing wildcats, re-necking for different calibers, or in your case stubborn brass, I would try Imperial Sizing Die Wax.

There are other lubes for heavy duty applications out there too. Some of the oldtimers used STP as a lubricant.

One thing to be careful if your Redding dies don't have vent hole (most Reddings don't) is not to have too much lube and dent--or even collpase--your cases. A vent hole acts as a "relief valve" and in your circumstances one will want to make sure the cases are well lubed--including the inside of the neck.


Casey

 

[Ol` Joe]

How`s your sizeing die adjusted?
The die should be set to touch the shellholder with the ram at its top and then an added 1/8-1/4 turn to take the "spring" from the press. The Hornady brass may have a tad more spring back the the other and isn`t being sized down enough. Simply screwing the die until it contacts the shellholder isn`t always enough. RCBS recommends adjusting this way. Forster says to set the die touching and add a touch extra to the depth until the cartridge chambers with just a bit of resistance.
Keep in mind the shoulder moves foreward dureing full lenght resizing and is pushed back at the last moment of ram travel. (like squeezing a tube of toothpast, you press on the sides and the paste inside moves foreward and out.) If you don`t get it puhed back enough to start, whether the ball drags or not it will be too far out.

 

[Ol` Joe]

How`s your sizeing die adjusted?
The die should be set to touch the shellholder with the ram at its top and then an added 1/8-1/4 turn to take the "spring" from the press. The Hornady brass may have a tad more spring back the the other and isn`t being sized down enough. Simply screwing the die until it contacts the shellholder isn`t always enough. RCBS recommends adjusting this way. Forster says to set the die touching and add a touch extra to the depth until the cartridge chambers with just a bit of resistance.
Keep in mind the shoulder moves foreward dureing full lenght resizing and is pushed back at the last moment of ram travel. (like squeezing a tube of toothpast, you press on the sides and the paste inside moves foreward and out.) If you don`t get it puhed back enough to start, whether the ball drags or not it will be too far out.