Huge Difference in Powder Charge for 280 w/7828 Why Nosler?

[JD338]

Another reason not to post pressures is that we handloaders are bound to take that to mean we can push them. Consider a load listed with 61,800psi for some magnum cartridge with a SAAMI max pressure of 64,000psi. Now, as a handloader and tinkerer, I'd look at that and say to myself, "I can push that up a tad, I've got a 3200psi cushion built in."
!

Ah, the old protect me from myself philosophy. Supply me with enough information to be functional, but not enough information to completely educate me.
Keeping me in the dark is safer than complete disclosure. Hmmm, where have I heard that before?

I'm not saying Nosler should protect you from yourself. I'm saying they have to protect themselves in the rotten, ridiculous litigious society we find ourselves in these days. If everyone who had accidents because they did something stupid just took responsibility for it, Nosler could publish everything they want. As it is, be glad they have the stones to keep publishing load data at all.

++1
Well said WM!

JD338

 

[steve4102]

I'm not saying Nosler should protect you from yourself. I'm saying they have to protect themselves in the rotten, ridiculous litigious society we find ourselves in these days. If everyone who had accidents because they did something stupid just took responsibility for it, Nosler could publish everything they want. As it is, be glad they have the stones to keep publishing load data at all.

Yes, I am glad Nosler keeps publishing load data. I would be more glad, gladder, more gladder if they published complete data with pressures listed. Accurate, Ramshot, Hodgdon, Alliant, ADI and Lyman list pressures in their load data. If they can do it without issues legal or otherwise, why can't Nosler.

 

[big rifle man]

dubyam, truer words were never spoken, amen to your comments.

 

[colt45]

I have to tell yall about time I took the "scissors and ran". Way back when, this other company came out with a bonded bullet with a black tip, I thought I had found "the bullet Iwas looking for", for my .280 . So i ordered a couple of boxes and started looking for data, wow it was so new there was no data for the bullet, there was plenty of data for other 150 grn .280 loads .when I started I started low and worked up, when I reached the max load for RL 22 it had lower velocities than what was published in my books. so I anyilized all the data, this is when I started TAKING LIBERTIES with the data, this book say it's X psi below SAMMI, this one says that and blah,blah you get the point. I worked up above max loads .2 grs at a time checking the crony and watching for pressure signs. I started getting flattend primers at 1.4 grns above max. I backed my load down to 1 grn over max or 57 grns of RL 22 behind 150 grn bullet in new winchester brass. It shot great and it would pole axe a whitetail as far as you wanted to shoot.
Now this is where it gets interesting. My dad and I have identical 280's the only difference is my serial number ends in 7 and his ends in 9. He wanted to shoot this load, so I thought WHAT IS SAFE IN MINE SHOULD BE SAFE IN HIS !!!! So as it goes we sat down at the range to sight his rifle in to this "load" I' m glad I was the one shooting be cause the first round ruptuered the case and peirced the primer needless to I did not shoot any more of that load in his gun and I no longer take liberties with load data.
IMHO this is exactly why Nosler does not publish the pressures in their manuals. [/u]

 

[steve4102]

Well, I called Nosler today and asked why they do not list pressures. Dubyam, you were partially correct. I was told that Nosler chooses not to list pressure not lawyer driven. I was also told that they choose not to list pressures because doing so would invite "pushing the load up a bit" as you suggested. And as I suggested, protecting me from myself.

 

[Guest]

Fair enough, Steve. Nothing is better than the original source to settle the question. Thanks for the update. I hope you didn't take offense at my comments, as none was intended. I live in a state that is so grotesquely in need of tort reform it is not even worth discussing, so lawyerism is a way of life down here. Seems like there are just enough scheisters (sp?) down here that sell tickets to the 'courtroom lottery' and can convince a jury that it should be someone else's fault that the system just doesn't get changed. Maybe because most of our legislators are also lawyers? Hmmmmmmm.......

 

[steve4102]

Fair enough, Steve. Nothing is better than the original source to settle the question. Thanks for the update. I hope you didn't take offense at my comments, as none was intended. ...

Nope, not a bit.

I am a little offended by Nosler though, just a tiny weeny little bit. I wasn't aware that they had so little respect for handloaders. Telling me that they choose not to list pressures because I will abuse that information kinda bothered me.

I was told that all of their max loads are 1000-2000psi below SAAMI specs. By listing these pressures, as a handloader I will look at this to mean I can automatically bump the load up a bit because I have 1000-2000psi buffer to play with. Not that I am a safe handloader that starts low and works up looking for signs of pressure along the way. Nope, I am an incompetent boob that looks at that listed pressure and says "Sheeeet, I can beat that load".

Yet Nosler lists some pretty impressive velocities in their manuals. Velocities that far exceed many other sources and are in many cases unrealistic. For example, 30-06 180gr bullet RL 22 61gr 2872fps out of a 24 inch barrel. Most other R-22 data lists velocities around 2700-2750fps. So, to keep the incompetent handloader from shootin for an unrealistic, unobtainable velocity and to protect him from himself, shouldn't Nosler choose not to list velocities as well? I mean come on, if Nosler can get almost 2900fps out of an 06/24in barrel with a 180gr Partition so can I.

Yup, Powder and charge weights, that should keep me from hurting myself.

 

[old #7]

Maybe you should use a different bullet and reloading manual.
Then you will be able to save yourself from all of this frustration.

Better yet, buy your own testing equipment, publish your own results with the data you want, don't forget the liability insurance and when your company that you spent your life building goes bankrupt from all of the lawsuits, you can tell yourself, your family and your employees you didn't want to disrespect any hand loaders by building in a sefety margin in the data.

I don't think you understand what liability is.

 

[steve4102]

I don't think you understand what liability is.

True enough. Except, I asked Nosler specifically if any of this was "Lawyer Driven" . I was told in no uncertain terms NO, Lawyers and liability have nothing to do with their decision. They choose not to publish pressures because handloaders are irresponsible and will abuse said data.

 

[Guest]

Wouldn't that lead to potential lawsuits though? Maybe they're admitting to something without admitting to it...just a thought. :?

I'm no expert on this matter, but what would a guy do with that pressure data if he had it?

 

[SakoSteve270wsm]

Now where's my .17 Cal B-tips? :grin:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[FOTIS]

Cartridge : .280 Rem.
Bullet : .284, 160, Nosler PART SP 16327
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.330 inch or 84.58 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 83 47.20 2309 1894 30494 9239 86.2 1.579
-18.0 85 48.38 2371 1998 32633 9576 87.7 1.535
-16.0 87 49.56 2434 2106 34936 9904 89.2 1.492
-14.0 90 50.74 2498 2217 37412 10221 90.7 1.450
-12.0 92 51.92 2562 2332 40076 10526 92.0 1.402
-10.0 94 53.10 2626 2450 42942 10816 93.2 1.356
-08.0 96 54.28 2691 2572 46041 11091 94.4 1.312
-06.0 98 55.46 2755 2697 49382 11348 95.5 1.270
-04.0 100 56.64 2820 2826 52998 11586 96.4 1.229
-02.0 102 57.82 2885 2958 56913 11803 97.3 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 104 59.00 2951 3093 61160 11998 98.0 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
+02.0 106 60.18 3016 3231 65774 12168 98.6 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 108 61.36 3081 3372 70799 12313 99.1 1.078 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 110 62.54 3146 3516 76280 12431 99.5 1.043 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 112 63.72 3211 3663 82275 12520 99.8 1.010 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 115 64.90 3276 3813 88846 12579 100.0 0.977 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 104 59.00 3104 3423 74552 11700 100.0 1.061 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 104 59.00 2742 2671 49556 11535 90.9 1.267

 

[steve4102]

Hey POP, why do my results differ from yours?

Cartridge : .280 Rem.
Bullet : .284, 160, Nosler PART SP 16327
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.330 inch or 84.58 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder : IMR 7828 SSC

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 83 47.20 2309 1894 30501 9240 86.2 1.579
-18.0 85 48.38 2372 1998 32643 9577 87.8 1.535
-16.0 87 49.56 2435 2106 34945 9904 89.2 1.492
-14.0 90 50.74 2498 2217 37422 10222 90.7 1.450
-12.0 92 51.92 2562 2332 40085 10526 92.0 1.402
-10.0 94 53.10 2626 2450 42953 10817 93.2 1.356
-08.0 96 54.28 2691 2572 46053 11091 94.4 1.312
-06.0 98 55.46 2756 2698 49396 11348 95.5 1.270
-04.0 100 56.64 2821 2826 53014 11586 96.4 1.229 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 102 57.82 2886 2958 56931 11803 97.3 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 104 59.00 2951 3093 61173 11997 98.0 1.151 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 106 60.18 3016 3232 65797 12168 98.6 1.114 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 108 61.36 3081 3373 70823 12313 99.1 1.078 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 110 62.54 3146 3517 76309 12430 99.5 1.043 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 112 63.72 3211 3664 82303 12519 99.8 1.010 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 115 64.90 3276 3813 88883 12578 100.0 0.977 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 104 59.00 3104 3423 74579 11699 100.0 1.061 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 104 59.00 2742 2672 49571 11535 90.9 1.267