Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 6
Calibers above medium bores do not follow the same rules. The .45 cals are kind of a whole separate category but I agree with you. Plus straight cases tend to be larger caliber and lower BC.
I gave in to the peer pressure.
- Thread starter geo
- Start date
Here is a quick comparison between the two.. Just a quick stab at it.
Both cartridges, ran up to 64000PSI, the 338-06 with a 225 PT, SD of .281 and BC of .454, muzzle velocity of 2700 out of a 24" tube.
35 Whelen 250 PT (.279 SD and .446 BC) 24" barrel 64000PSI muzzle velocity of 2650
Your Input Variables
Sorry for my crappy layout of the data tables, but I think it'll get the point across, there isn't any magic with either cartridge or caliber when run the same, at 600 yards, the 338-06 has about 5" better trajectory, but the Whelen still beats it with energy. At a more realistic 400 yards, they are both carrying about 2,000 FTLB's or energy.. I just can't see where one is any better than the other to be honest. Both bullets are as close in SD and BC as I can find, and it would take a whole lot more range that I would ever shoot either at to show the "better" BC of the 338.. Yes, you could run an AB in the 338-06 and get it better, but I don't think you would get the same start speed as you would with the PT's. Again, they are both pretty awesome, but would fall out the same hole in a burlap bag, again, when loaded the same.
Sorry for the long post, but I was actually interested to see what they actually looked like in the numbers department. Ask me in a few months, hopefully the Whelen gets to claim another bull elk!
Both cartridges, ran up to 64000PSI, the 338-06 with a 225 PT, SD of .281 and BC of .454, muzzle velocity of 2700 out of a 24" tube.
Code:
Ballistic Coefficient 0.454 Velocity (ft/s) 2700 Weight (grains) 225
Maximum Range (yds) 600 Interval (yds) 50 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 5 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results - 338-06
RANGE VELOCITY ENERGY TRAJECTORY MOA WIND DRIFT
Muzzle 2700 3642 -1.5 0 0
50 2601 3380 0.9 -1.7 0.1
100 2505 3134 2 -1.9 0.4
150 2410 2902 1.8 -1.1 0.9
200 2318 2684 0 0 1.6
250 2227 2479 -3.4 1.3 2.5
300 2139 2285 -8.5 2.7 3.7
350 2052 2104 -15.5 4.2 5.1
400 1968 1935 -24.6 5.9 6.7
450 1886 1777 -36 7.6 8.7
500 1806 1629 -49.8 9.5 11
550 1728 1493 -66.2 11.5 13.6
600 1654 1366 -85.6 13.6 16.535 Whelen 250 PT (.279 SD and .446 BC) 24" barrel 64000PSI muzzle velocity of 2650
Your Input Variables
Code:
Ballistic Coefficient 0.446 Velocity (ft/s) 2650 Weight (grains) 250
Maximum Range (yds) 600 Interval (yds) 50 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 5 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results - 35 Whelen
RANGE VELOCITY ENERGY TRAJ COME UP WIND DRIFT
Muzzle 2650 3898 -1.5 0 0
50 2550 3611 1 -1.9 0.1
100 2453 3341 2.2 -2.1 0.4
150 2358 3087 1.9 -1.2 0.9
200 2265 2849 0 0 1.6
250 2175 2625 -3.5 1.4 2.6
300 2086 2415 -8.9 2.8 3.8
350 1999 2218 -16.3 4.4 5.3
400 1915 2035 -25.9 6.2 7.1
450 1832 1864 -37.8 8 9.2
500 1753 1705 -52.3 10 11.5
550 1676 1559 -69.7 12.1 14.3
600 1602 1424 -90.2 14.3 17.3Sorry for my crappy layout of the data tables, but I think it'll get the point across, there isn't any magic with either cartridge or caliber when run the same, at 600 yards, the 338-06 has about 5" better trajectory, but the Whelen still beats it with energy. At a more realistic 400 yards, they are both carrying about 2,000 FTLB's or energy.. I just can't see where one is any better than the other to be honest. Both bullets are as close in SD and BC as I can find, and it would take a whole lot more range that I would ever shoot either at to show the "better" BC of the 338.. Yes, you could run an AB in the 338-06 and get it better, but I don't think you would get the same start speed as you would with the PT's. Again, they are both pretty awesome, but would fall out the same hole in a burlap bag, again, when loaded the same.
Sorry for the long post, but I was actually interested to see what they actually looked like in the numbers department. Ask me in a few months, hopefully the Whelen gets to claim another bull elk!
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 6
Actually, the sectional densities of the 225 gr, .338 bullet and the 250 gr .358 bullet are almost identical. This would dictate that except for small ballistic coefficient differences, they are peas in a pod. Your tables bear that out Scotty, that is all that I was trying to say earlier.
257 Ackley
Handloader
- Nov 25, 2008
- 1,763
- 0
SJB358":1wtlsyqm said:
Scotty -
I'm not planning on taking the 338-06 to Montana with me, so you can take it and find out how well it really works....
Nice work-up on the comparisons mate, they are two peas in a pod.257 Ackley":kvq4fxm5 said:SJB358":kvq4fxm5 said:
Scotty -
I'm not planning on taking the 338-06 to Montana with me, so you can take it and find out how well it really works....
HA! now, why would I wanna take that little pea shooter 338-06? :lol: Jeeze :twisted:
What are you taking for the 2nd rifle?
nvbroncrider
Handloader
- Aug 20, 2011
- 3,085
- 4
SJB358":19ycvots said:Scotty -
I'm not planning on taking the 338-06 to Montana with me, so you can take it and find out how well it really works....
What are you taking for the 2nd rifle?
Why not a 22-250 with the 64gr bonded it's a pea shooter! It might challenge the 6mm Remington as enough gun for the job!!
nvbroncrider":2lmxxw9m said:SJB358":2lmxxw9m said:Scotty -
I'm not planning on taking the 338-06 to Montana with me, so you can take it and find out how well it really works....
What are you taking for the 2nd rifle?
Why not a 22-250 with the 64gr bonded it's a pea shooter! It might challenge the 6mm Remington as enough gun for the job!!
Man, talk about stirring the nest! Joel's 338-06 is pretty awesome Jake. He set that rifle up well and it shoots like it is a 22-250.
nvbroncrider
Handloader
- Aug 20, 2011
- 3,085
- 4
SJB358":1onashx0 said:nvbroncrider":1onashx0 said:SJB358":1onashx0 said:Scotty -
I'm not planning on taking the 338-06 to Montana with me, so you can take it and find out how well it really works....
What are you taking for the 2nd rifle?
Why not a 22-250 with the 64gr bonded it's a pea shooter! It might challenge the 6mm Remington as enough gun for the job!!
Man, talk about stirring the nest! Joel's 338-06 is pretty awesome Jake. He set that rifle up well and it shoots like it is a 22-250.
Well we do have friends on this forum that use .416's on speedgoats and others that use 6mm on elk. So I guess for a 2nd rifle that's a pea shooter it would have to be smaller right? Or maybe a .577 Tyrannasaur?
I think the 338-06 is a great round though. It's almost a Whelen but has a better bullet selection. I can't wait for October!! After my 21 days straight I will be doing a lot of work with it!
I think you will enjoy the load work with your 338 Jake. I haven't heard of many that weren't very accurate and man, they make for some nice hunting rifles. Not so much recoil to knock your hat off and plenty of power for all but the longest shots. Can't wait to see it all set up.
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 6
The .338-06 is a .338 WM minus about 50-75 yards. I do not believe that any elk sized animal within 400 yards would care about the difference and shrug it off as he walked away, it just won't happen. It confounds me that anyone would think that there is much difference between these two cartridges anyhow? As Scottie's tables illustrate, SD for SD, they are about as close to twins as you can get. Just a bit more drop for the .35 Whelen and a bit more energy because of a slightly heavier bullet. There you have it! Nuff said!
Oldtrader3":1ufxc2j2 said:
Charlie is correct on all points-------However--LOL
The 340 Weatherby is smack dab between the 338-06 and 35 Whelen and will reach out further and hit harder than either one of them, Scotty so that folks will not think I have lost my mind, please show the 340 with a 250 gr in comparison with the other two. Everybody on the forum reloads so cost of ammo cannot be the reason folks seem to ignore what this caliber can do. Dubyam, you and I cannot be the only ones that have compared the ballistics of this caliber to others in its class. ???. And for the record I prefer the 30-06 for almost all big game hunting in North America. but the 340 has made an impression on me for sure
Sean, I love the 340 Weatherby, I think the nicest one I have seen to date is Charlie's 340 since he restocked it. That is my version of a sweet elk smasher.. I know I wouldn't have a single want with a 340 in the safe. They are usually very accurate and seemingly easy to load for as well. A few times I have thought about having my Model 70 338WM rebarreled to 340 Wby and adding an extended mag box to house the big guy.
Sorry for the crappy chart, but you get the picture I think. It is just more of a good thing, without a doubt!
Code:
Your Input Variables
Ballistic Coefficient 0.473 Velocity (ft/s) 2900 Weight (grains) 250
Maximum Range (yds) 600 Interval (yds) 50 Drag Function G1
Sight Height (inches) 1.5 Shooting Angle (degrees) 0 Zero Range (yds) 200
Wind Speed (mph) 5 Wind Angle (degrees) 90 Altitude (ft) 0
Pressure (hg) 29.53 Temperature (F) 59 Humidity (%) 0.78
Ballistics Results - 340 WBY
RANGE VELOCITY ENERGY TRAJECTORY (IN) WIND DRIFT (IN)
Muzzle 2900 4668 -1.5 0
50 2801 4354 0.6 -1.2
100 2704 4058 1.6 -1.6
150 2609 3779 1.5 -0.9
200 2516 3515 0 0
250 2426 3266 -2.8 1.1
300 2336 3030 -7.1 2.3
350 2249 2808 -13 3.6
400 2164 2599 -20.6 4.9
450 2080 2402 -30.1 6.4
500 1999 2217 -41.6 7.9
550 1919 2044 -55.3 9.6
600 1841 1882 -71.3 11.3Sorry for the crappy chart, but you get the picture I think. It is just more of a good thing, without a doubt!
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 6
Thanks for the compliment on my Mark V, Scotty. Unfortunately I think that due to old age and illness, my days with the .340 Bee are numbered, as are elk hunts. I only weigh 135 pounds now (from 165) after the last staph pneumonia episode and even shooting the .340 is getting pretty uncomfortable because I have no shoulder fat or muscle anymore to pad the rifle's recoil. It is pad on bone.
I am sitting here doing my Sunday morning IV set infusion through my belly wall injecting 35cc's of Gamma Globulin in order to buy me another week of possible prevention from getting pneumonia or (?) from other people. I can't even go to church every week anymore because difficient immunity disease (CVID) and the chance of catching a serious disease. All of my immunizations and antibodies from working overseas are null and void now. TB and NH Lymphoma-lung cancer took care of that. I can catch anything, anytime but I do get some protection from the serum which I infuse, that is if I do not get Serum Aids or Hepatitis C from drug addict blood donors. I go to the range during the week because there is seldom anyone there except the RO, so I am relatively safe. This is a pretty boring existence.
I am sitting here doing my Sunday morning IV set infusion through my belly wall injecting 35cc's of Gamma Globulin in order to buy me another week of possible prevention from getting pneumonia or (?) from other people. I can't even go to church every week anymore because difficient immunity disease (CVID) and the chance of catching a serious disease. All of my immunizations and antibodies from working overseas are null and void now. TB and NH Lymphoma-lung cancer took care of that. I can catch anything, anytime but I do get some protection from the serum which I infuse, that is if I do not get Serum Aids or Hepatitis C from drug addict blood donors. I go to the range during the week because there is seldom anyone there except the RO, so I am relatively safe. This is a pretty boring existence.
I am sorry to hear of all of your health problems hurting your range time with the big 340 Charlie. I know how much that beast means to you. I guess you have a couple lighter rifles that can fill in for you though, for range work. Keep shooting buddy..
Tnhunter":2cmj30az said:
I didn't say either was any better or worse,,, I also never suggested that the .338-06 was superior, but somehow you took my wanting one over the .35 Whelen, I made it out to be superior.
Anything I implied or actual, that they are ballistically close enough. Meaning there isn't enough hair between the trajectories to concern me,,,, and the energy difference, I been slapped harder with an open hand. I just mentioned it was a better fit for my wants.
You brought in the numbers game with only a published comparision for the Whelen. I only mentioned I wanted something between. And .338 fits between .366 and .308 rather evenly, don't you think. While your experience with .338-06 means something, the experience with the .358 Win. and not the Whelen has little bearing,,,,again you going off "printed" figures.
"I'd simply say this.... I've owned a .338/06 and it's a great round; very close to .35 Whelen specs. But I've yet to find from numbers I've seen where it's any better at any weight bullet of 180gr & above to make make me choose it over the Whelen."
Now Scotty's numbers show what I suggested also. Although I definately wouldn't mind the added .020" frontal of the Whelen in some circumstances, as I stated also. But there again I have that covered with the 9.3. Now I can't say Scotty's thoughts on the .338-06/ 225gr. AB are wrong in not getting the same velocity as the PT. I haven't shot enough different AB's to say either way. But if I did build a .338-06, it would be throated for the .225 AB, maybe making some difference. Even though I'm a dedicated Partition guy,,,,in this particular want and intended use, the 225 AB does what I want. Then again, if I was building one, it would still be AI'd, and betting the 225 AB at 27-2750 is doable I believe.
