I Got The North Fork To Shoot

[bullet]

Here is what I sent to North Fork after they sent me some 165gr to try again and 180gr for 300Win mag along with 200gr for my 358Win. I was able to get hunting accuracy (not what I am use to but good enough for hunting) out of the North Fork bullets.

Franz, I have some much better news. I am not getting 3" groups now. First, I think part of the problem with the 165gr SS I bought from Midway were that they were not cleaned well and there was machining residue in the grooves (every bullet in the box) defeating the very purpose of the grooves in the first place. Not only were my groups smaller and acceptable hunting groups, using the ones you sent me, but velocities were up by 75fps using the same loads I did with the bullets I bought. Second, here is a picture of one of the 165gr SS I bought from Midway on the left and one of the 165gr SS you sent me on the right. Seating depth, powder, brass were all the same so the residue in the grooves is the only culprit I can think of that was causing me the problems I was experiencing.

First bullet I bought on left - The bullet you sent me on right

Three shot group of 180gr SS using MRP moving 3193fps average out of a 24" barrel. Very good load.

Three shot group of 220gr 358Win 2636fps, I like these but going to buy 225gr SS because I can move them at 2550gps easy since I move a 225gr AccuBond at 2550gps, that is enough velocity to get expansion with the SS. Plus my 358Win likes 225gr bullets much better than 200gr.

Four shot group 165gr SS moving 3226fps is good but I will use the 180gr SS for my big stuff and use my Sierra 165gr HPBT for deer.

Thank you for sending the 165gr bullets for me to try and for the 180gr SS bullets which I really like. Yours truly, Mike Price

 

[SJB358]

Looks great Mike. That 180 is trucking! Scotty

 

[Gm weatherby man]

Now you done it,off I go to pro bass , to interesting to pass up and play with. The more I read on this site and in mags the more I want to try the next gadget , great thanks. :lol:

 

[SJB358]

Now you done it,off I go to pro bass , to interesting to pass up and play with. The more I read on this site and in mags the more I want to try the next gadget , great thanks. :lol:

Welcome to the club. I haven't seen much I don't wanna "mess with" a little. Scotty

 

[bullet]

Here is a letter to the Guns & Ammo forum by John in response to my post there. I am known as Beartracker on the Guns & Ammo sight.

Hello,

I wanted to let everyone in the Guns & Ammo forums that we do not accept this level of quality coming out of our factory. Beartracker has been excellent to work with and has done everything we have asked. Information was shared and ideas were exchanged. I am hopefull that Beartracker is happy with the level of support he has received. Luckily, Beartracker knows that accuracy is a system not just a function of the bullet. We believe if the handloader takes the time and does everything correctly, our bullets are just or more accurate than all other on the market. Every rifle is different and everyone's ability to load accurate ammunition is different, thus results can vary. But this was not the case with Beartracker. I can offer many excuses, but none that our customers should worry about. As we have become more known, we had growing pains due to hiring/firing/etc. But this level of accuracy is not taken lightly by us and we have reviewed all of our processes, quality checks, and have made improvements where issues have been discovered.

Our bullets are more expensive than most (cheaper than the original TBBC and that was in 1990 dollars), but the performace is unmatched. We believe in service and making the best product we possibly can without taking any short cuts either in manufacturing or materials.

Let it be known we take hunting and shooting very seriously otherwise we would not be in the business. Everyhting we source is made in the USA and we make everything here in the USA. If you have not tried our bullets, give us a shot on your next big hunt.

Thank you for your time.

Regards,
John

Vice-President
North Fork Technologies

I return his response with the following:

John, not only was I very happy with the effort that North Fork went to in helping me solve my issues, but I am very excited about the the 180gr SS in my 300Win Mag. The 3193fps out of a 300win mag 24" barrel without pressures signs is nothing to sneeze at when you consider the 1/2" group it shoots. I will be buying more of those and will be hunting with those. My 358Win shot your 200gr bullets better than it has shot any other 200gr bullet so I know the 225gr will shoot good because my gun loves that weight bullet. I will be ordering some of those as well. John, North Fork patience and willingness to hang in there and trust me to try other approaches goes a long way with me and I will use North Fork's product. Can't wait to use them on a hunt because I know how the TBBC killed game for me and I expect even better results out of the North Fork because I can get much better velocities. Thanks again for the service. Mike Price (Beartracker)

 

[BK]

Hey Mike, any idea what the BC is like on the NFs? Looks like it might be pretty significantly less than, say, an AccuBond.

 

[bullet]

Hey Mike, any idea what the BC is like on the NFs? Looks like it might be pretty significantly less than, say, an AccuBond.

They are not into BC but I know it is a long bullet

 

[efw]

Mike,

Very nice results.

Impressive lengths that the NF folks went to to get those shooting through your rifle!

I've had some .338 225 gr NFs I intend to try out when I get my .338-06 AI barrel in a couple of months!

I'm sure the BC is lower than other projectiles, but lets face it in hunting situations it really doesn't matter unless you're into purposely setting up long range shots as in "long range hunting".

 

[FOTIS]

Looks great Mike. That 180 is trucking! Scotty

Heck yeah it is! :shock:

 

[FOTIS]

Hey Mike, any idea what the BC is like on the NFs? Looks like it might be pretty significantly less than, say, an AccuBond.

This and the price is mainly the reasons I do not use them. If you go to their site, you will read a whole article on BC ; that it does not really apply to most situations; and that it is not that simple to come up with an accurate #; blah blah blah.

Here you go I found it...

What are the ballistic coefficients of the bullets?

(Short answer) At this time, we do not have the facilities or equipment to obtain accurate BC's.
(Long answer) The determination of accurate BC's is far more complex than most people assume. Any BC's acquired by measuring bullet drop or by measuring the velocity of a string of bullets at the muzzle and then moving the chronograph out to some distance and firing another string, are absolutely useless and equivalent to generating nonsense; the old, “garbage in, garbage out”.

The only useful method is to have two chronographs that are calibrated to each other and are set apart at an accurately measured distance, plus or minus no more than one inch. (Is the range that you use measured to that accuracy? I can tell you for certain that mine isn’t). Add to this, altitude, barometric pressure, temperature, and humidity and things get very complex. I will tell you outright that we do not have the facilities or equipment to measure the BC's to the accuracy that I would demand. A few of the larger companies have the resources and are very diligent in measuring and publishing accurate BC's. Some others are a little optimistic and others are down right laughable. Published BC's are one of those things that should be taken with a large grain of salt. When the equipment is acquired and the time becomes available, we will publish real world BC's and post them here. Until then, we have found that BC's from the larger companies that have a protected point style, (Speer, Nosler, etc.) to be quite useable out to any practical hunting range.
Might as well take this time to cover the “why don’t you” questions that pertain to the ballistic coefficient. Why don’t you put a plastic tip on the bullet? Why don’t you put a boattail on it? Why don’t you reduce the size of the meplat so the bullet has a sharper point on it?

Let’s start with the plastic tip. The bullets that we manufacture have a high content of copper (see cutaway) and as such are already long for their weight when compared to conventional lead cored bullets. A plastic tip would only make the situation worse. Not only will the length of the plastic tip be added to the total length, but also the jacket would have to be extended in order to provide a space for the base of the tip to be locked into. The total of the two would add more than a quarter of an inch to the OAL of the bullet, necessitating deeper seating of the bullet by the same amount. That is a price that I am not willing to pay for a little increase in BC.

Why don’t you put a boattail on it? In the first place, a boattail would also make the bullet longer. (Are you picking up on the fact that I don’t like long bullets without a very good reason?). And second, the installation of the boattail brings another manufacturing variable into the equation. The more variables there are, the more likely that one of those variables will be detrimental to accuracy. If you ask any of the big companies that make both, flat base and boattail, they will tell you that the flat bases have a greater accuracy potential. I have staked my reputation (and financial future) on providing a bonded core bullet that is accurate. I will not put anything into the equation that has the potential of deviating from that goal.

Why don’t you make the tip (meplat) smaller, so the bullet would have a sharper point? The answer to this one contains two parts. The first has to do with length of the bullet and the weight distribution over the length of the bullet. The second has to do with the velocities at which the bullet will open. When the tip of the bullet is brought to a small point, becoming a spitzer, rather than a semi-spitzer, the bullet would become longer, for the same weight. The pointed nose of the bullet would also mean a lesser amount of the mass of the bullet will be outside the case, obviously necessitating that a greater amount of the mass be inside the case, taking up powder space.
Four things determine the minimum velocity at which a bullet will open.

1. The jacket material.
2. How far that material was moved from it’s original, annealed position.
3. The thickness of the jacket at the mouth.
4. The “affective” meplat size.


1. The basic characteristics of the jacket material, primarily, ductility and tensile strength will have an affect on what the minimum velocity would be, to initiate rupture and begin the mushroom process.
2. How far the material is moved from the original position is linked to #1, in that, the farther it is moved, the harder the material will become. Copper and copper based alloys are hardened by working them. The more pointed (smaller meplat) the bullet is made; the farther the jacket material that makes the point is moved. The farther the material is moved, the more it is worked and the harder it gets. The harder the material is, the higher the impact velocity must be to rupture it and begin the mushroom.
3. The thickness of the jacket at the mouth is determined (in my case) by the initial machining process (which has practical lower limits on how thin the material can be machined) as well as a direct relation to #2 above. When the jacket material that forms the mouth of the jacket is moved to the degree necessary to form a small point, it also becomes thicker. The farther it is moved the thicker it becomes and again the higher the impact velocity needs to be for the bullet to mushroom.
4. The “affective” meplat size is defined by the diameter of the tip of the bullet at the immediate end of the jacket. The meplat, in conjunction with the thickness of the jacket at the same point, will define the area, of lead, that will be exposed to initial impact. Think of looking at the end of the bullet with any lead at the tip cut flush with the mouth of the jacket. This area of lead is what the flesh of the quarry would act upon to initiate expansion; sort of like a hydraulic piston with the flesh acting as the fluid. When the point of the bullet is forced to a smaller size, this area is doubly affected. First, it becomes smaller in area due to the reduction in diameter and, second, the jacket material, at this point has become thicker, further reducing the area. Any reduction in this area will require a higher impact velocity to initiate expansion.


In summation, the reduction in the size of the tip of a bullet will reduce the affective hydraulic area for flesh to act upon, the jacket material at the tip would become thicker, and the same material would be strengthened due to work hardening. All these affects are detrimental to the reliable function of the bullet at low impact velocities. Again, a price I am not willing to pay for a slight increase in BC.

When I asked Mike Brady a while back on his 375 cal bullet for my 378 Bee he told me that his bullets were not measured for BC. When I asked him to guess he told me about .325 or so.
Here is the bullet
.375-250 SS (50 per box) $ 83.72

So I had a choice of AccuBond at .485 and NF at a whopping cast bullet like # of .325 ............ and more than double the price!
Kind of a no brainer... for me personally that is.
As far as their performance in my opinion I do not see them offering anything super special that others do not. Take the Barnes Tipped TSX for instance......
or these for $20.00 less ....... http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=698890

Here are the AB's and PT's at more than half the price

From left to right:

308 Cal 200 AB, 3170 fps: Penetration 11". Retained weight 133.6, 67%
338 Cal 225 AB, 3100 fps: Penetration 12". Retained weight 145.2, 65%
375 Cal 260 AB, 2700 fps: Penetration 12". Retained weight 203.6, 78%
375 Cal 260 PT, 2700 fps: Penetration 10". Retained weight 219.0, 84%

It was nothing too scientific, but I thought some might enjoy seeing the results.

 

[bullet]

Pretty pictures of both bullet companies. Have you ever seen game killed with the TBBC ? If you have then expect that an more from the NF because any TBBC you pushed as I have when we could get them for reloading, were sure fire killers. Remember the NF has been tested against the Partition (Which North Fork likes better than other bullets outside their own) and the NF penetrated further and maintain a straight line through media further. I have a friend who is doing some special and technical media testing of all different makes and bullets and I am sending him some for his evaluation. It will take a while because he is back up with a lot of bullets from all manufactures that are being submitted to this test. When he finishes I will send you all a comparison between the Partition and NF

 

[SJB358]

My old man smoked a brown bear with my 338WM and a 225gr TBBC as loaded by Federal. Worked pretty well and I still have a recovered one at my parents house. I like the NFs and have some 350's for the 45-70 but I don't think I could honestly say one is better than the other unless I put a bunch of them into some really heavy game to evaluate them really fairly. There is room for all good bullets, just couldn't afford to shoot NFs as much as I can PTs. Scotty

 

[FOTIS]

I have actually used the TBBC. The original ones designed by Jack Carter. Both my friend Brad and I were using them, him a lot more than I. They killed great but in truth I did not see a huge difference between them and other bullets. Definitely nothing that justifies 120% more cost.
But hey! we use what we like. Nothing wrong with that. :mrgreen:

 

[Elkman]

Mike

Another great bullet and group show. I think you should charge admission for your shows and data. I pay close attention to your posts and articles, and do learn from them. Thanks again.

 

[bullet]

Mike

Another great bullet and group show. I think you should charge admission for your shows and data. I pay close attention to your posts and articles, and do learn from them. Thanks again.

Thank you, very kind words indeed.

 

[Guest]

Pop,
I'm in the same Camp with you. The NF Bullet looks like a good bullet and I'm sure it performs well. Your pics of the Noslers is impressive. It's difficult to steer away from Nosler.

Don

 

[FOTIS]

Oh they do make a fine bullet. I just can not see what I am gaining by using them as opposed to other brands. Especially at those prices.

BTW we have veered away from the original post and this has nothing to do with Mike's findings. This was brought forward by the aforementioned BC question.

 

[Guest]

Hard to believe they aren't concerned about BC, go figure.

Don

 

[SJB358]

I do agree with theirs and others philosophy. I don't really care too awfully much about BC. Reason being is I am not a long range shooter. Typically I would prefer to be within 400 yards and 500 max. If I can't get there, well, I will figure out a way to do it. I might miss out, but that is part of hunting. BC really doesn't make too much difference to 400 yards. Yes, I know it counts, but good/great bullet performance is much more preferable to me. Not saying I don't appreciate a high BC'ed bullet, but I don't seek most bullets on BC, all by itself. Heck, one of my favorite bullets is the 275gr Speer 338 cal with a .456 BC. Most all the NF's look pretty close to the same SS profile. I am good with that. Scotty

 

[Guest]

Scotty,
I can see that. Everyone has their reasons for the bullets they select. I pay attention to the BC with the bullet I shoot in my 300 Ultra Mag. and not so much with the 30-06 and 35 Whelen. I use the latter differently than the RUM. Your point is received and a good one.

I may not be up to date on this but I always thought all bullet manufacturers listed a BC on their product offering. I'm not familiar with NF as a bullet manufacturer. Just was surprised no BC was listed.

Don