Improved Cartridges

[preacher]

Just picked up the latest Handloader magazine at the store. I like John Barsness articles a lot, never met him in person. I understand all the "not worth the effort" stuff and such, however...I surely wish he would stop calling "my favorite" 35 Whelen Ackley Improved as "worthless"! ha You are hurting my rifle's feelings Dr John! I like the fact I can get the same velocity as a maximum loaded 24"bbl standard Whelen but at "lower" pressure in my 22" bbl Improved. Yep, I have a couple of loads that are surely "up there" in pressure, but I never hunt with them! ha I have no problem loading any '06 based cartridge to modern .270 Winchester pressures at all. The Goose and Gander thingy. But the velocity gains I get from a 22" bbl are worth it to me. See, what sold me on the 35 WAI was an article I read in the 80's (or early 90's?) by the late Gary Sitton who wrote on obtaining 2600fps with a 250gr bullet from the 20" bbl mannlicher he made up for elk hunting ( to better utilize the range/ftlbs energy thingy). I liked the concept. I liked the looks of the formed case, and I liked the results of my own loads. I just wish Mr B would "back off my baby"!!!! ha
Any other looney Handloaders out there besides me who LOVE the 35 Whelen Ackley Improved 40deg shoulder round? ( See how that long name just "makes it" even better? ha)

 

[6mm Remington]

Preacher you have my complete permission to love and swoon over your 35 Whelen Ackley Improved. I have no doubt that it is a fine cartridge. As with my .280 Nosler Ackley Improved, you do get some improvement in the velocity range on two already outstanding cartridges. What is not to like! :grin:

Preacher would you do me a favor and post a pic of a standard loaded 35 Whelen and your 35 Whelen Ackley Improved? You may have one already posted up, but I would like to see it again.

Without a doubt the standard .280 Remington and the standard 35 Whelen are superb rounds. No question about that, but notice the word in front of each..............STANDARD. We each have one sexy SOB in our chamberings and to heck with anyone who scoffs at them! :x :shock:

David

 

[filmjunkie4ever]

It's never a good day when someone's pets musket gets dissed by a gun writer. But allow me to play a little devil's advocate here.

What I took from the article is that we are literally inundated with cartridges and rifles these days and as a result it can be tough, especially for a novice (which not many here are a novice) to make sense of it all. Rather than buying something flashy at the time that in 5-10 yrs will be dead it can be wise to stick with time-tested Standard cartridges. Why improve on something that is time tested?

Improved cartridges offer little in the standard barrel lengths etc. with SAAMI safe pressure loads. Of course if you "load them hot" you can open up that gap sometimes considerably. But then comes the issue of barrel life, brass life, etc. There are no free lunches. So instead of hot rodding a .280 (or .280 AI) why not get a 7mm Rem Mag is the question I felt Mr. Barsness is trying to pose.

The improved cartridges are not worthless. Wildcat and Obsolete cartridges are not worthless. Any good bullet fired at decent velocity will get the job done. Whether it comes from a .280 Ross, a 7x65R, a .284 Winchester is no matter, it's really the bullet that kills the animal, not the carapace it left behind to get there.

I preach the gospel of the .30-06 on here all the time. It is my favorite. But the dead mule deer wouldn't be able to tell you if that bullet came from Chris Kyle's .300 Win Mag or my Dad's Savage 99 .308 because he is dead and that's what counts.

You boys shoot what you like, because you can, as I do. I could shoot anything I want to and yet choose to shoot what I shoot because it suits me. It doesn't have to suit Ted Roosevelt, Ernest Hemmingway, Jack O'Connor, Elmer Keith, or anyone else, it just has to suit me. As long as you can punch paper, kill varmints, fill the freezer, and defend the code, it WILL suit you too!

Sorry, a bit of a rant there, but hope you enjoyed. I happen to like John Barsness but I knew this article was going to get some hackles up.

Dale

 

[truck driver]

Not the best picture in the world but it should give you an idea of what a 35AI and a 35 Whelen looks like with a 200gr AB loaded and ready to go. The sweet point with any AI chamber if it's done right is you can shoot the factory ammo threw the AI chamber safely but once the case is fire formed it will only work in the AI chamber.
Once the case is fire formed you can forget about trimming the brass since there is hardly any case stretch. Though I haven't pushed it 2850fps it is capable of over 3000fps with a 200gr bullet and the right powder and still be under 65Kpsi according to QL. Lower pressure and less felt recoil is just some of the attributes for the AI chamber I have experienced.

 

[6mm Remington]

Very nice picture truck driver!

 

[preacher]

Thanks for posting the pics TD! I had my computer wiped out about a month ago and lost many pics/etc. People "should" be aware that when the devil was kicked out of Heaven he "landed" in ALL THING ELECTRICAL! I love not trimming brass! I have some 35 WAI brass from '95 and "still" haven't had to trim any! Wow!

PS I also have never, even with hot load workups have had a blown primer or insipient case head separation. I do think there is something to the claim of the case clinging to the chamber wall and creating less bolt thrust. I also believe that, even as small as it is, that sharper 40deg shoulder helps with ignition/powder burn. R15 is just a wonder with heavy bullets in my rifle, and H322 with 200 grainers.

 

[tim629]

I would say i'm a novice reloader, got into reloading due to my brother-in-law being a gunsmith and saying "hey i'll build you a rifle at cost if you want" which turned into two.

I could have gone with a tried-true 22-250 & 30-06 to cover anything in North America, but if I wanted one of those I could go buy a good rifle off the rack have the stock cut to length and be done.

instead I have a 280AI & a 338-06AI, I don't own a chronograph so I'm not looking to squeak out that last 200fps and I'm not looking at shooting anything past 200 yards so no "need" for the improved capacity BUT I have yet to need to trim the brass, I have plenty of bullet options to fit both rifles, and both are interesting cartriges that are common online but not "common" on the hunting grounds so makes them a bit more fun to me, even if I could have gotten away with a cheaper option but not as special to me and not as fun of a conversation piece

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I like mine...

 

[truck driver]

When I bought my 35 Whelen from Lee I was in the planning stages of sending a M70 out to J.E.S to be rebored and chambered but held off when I bought my Whelen. I had always wanted an Ackely of some sort since I first read about them when I was a teenager so with the desire still burning inside me I called J.E.S. and made arrangements to get it done. It has been an adventure loading the 200gr AB but one that has been rewarding. I would chamber another rifle with the Ackely version in mind.

 

[preacher]

hey Tim, I "almost" had a 338/270 Improved made up ( its called the HGT I think) anyhow, it was just a a nice looking round, but then, back in '95, I came up on my first Mod 700 Classic in 35 Whelen on consignment. I ran to the bank ( this was pre-debit card days!) got the money and drove like crazy back. I had read of that rifle back in '88 when Craig Boddington shot that big moose with it and was smitten. Still in Bible College, I had -zero- money for anything back then for one, ha. So, "fate" ( or could it be the Will of God" ) had me end up with the 35 caliber...which I love dearly, madly deeply....told you I was looney! ha

 

[gerry]

Just picked up the latest Handloader magazine at the store. I like John Barsness articles a lot, never met him in person. I understand all the "not worth the effort" stuff and such, however...I surely wish he would stop calling "my favorite" 35 Whelen Ackley Improved as "worthless"! ha You are hurting my rifle's feelings Dr John! I like the fact I can get the same velocity as a maximum loaded 24"bbl standard Whelen but at "lower" pressure in my 22" bbl Improved. Yep, I have a couple of loads that are surely "up there" in pressure, but I never hunt with them! ha I have no problem loading any '06 based cartridge to modern .270 Winchester pressures at all. The Goose and Gander thingy. But the velocity gains I get from a 22" bbl are worth it to me. See, what sold me on the 35 WAI was an article I read in the 80's (or early 90's?) by the late Gary Sitton who wrote on obtaining 2600fps with a 250gr bullet from the 20" bbl mannlicher he made up for elk hunting ( to better utilize the range/ftlbs energy thingy). I liked the concept. I liked the looks of the formed case, and I liked the results of my own loads. I just wish Mr B would "back off my baby"!!!! ha
Any other looney Handloaders out there besides me who LOVE the 35 Whelen Ackley Improved 40deg shoulder round? ( See how that long name just "makes it" even better? ha)

I liked Gary Sitton and the things he wrote in general but in this case John Barsness was right about the 35 Whelen vs 35 Whelen AI at equal pressures there isn't much difference between the two. Of course there is no real reason not to go with the AI'ed version if you want to. The same thing exists with the 280 Rem vs 280 AI, the standard version is under loaded while the AI version is loaded to the max. Probably the ones that gain the most would be the 22/250 and 250 Savage and their tapered case and of course the 300 H&H to 300 Wby. Handloaders like to run their rounds at higher pressures, the 7mm STW comes to mind. When it became a factory round the speeds were a fair bit slower, it turns out some of Layne Simpson's pet loads were up to 70,000 psi.
Of course anyone can shoot what they want which makes things interesting for us all.

 

[preacher]

My very first A.I. cartridge was the .257 Roberts Improved back in '83. It was in one of the first Mod 700 Classic runs, and it had a 24" barrel. since it was in that long action, I could seat the bullets way out. I didn't have a chronograph but I'm sure I was running right with or very close to a 25-06, this was using the 120 Hornady HP. I was hooked! ha. While I could have loaded the standard 257R out that long ( increasing my powder space) I would not have had that straight case/40 deg shoulder, and I just liked having something different. The 24" bbl helped too. In the early 90's, I had a 22" 280 Mt Rifle reamed to the AI...beautiful round, but with its favorite bullet ( read it was finicky) the 150NBT, I only gained 50fps! Bummer.
I did gain more with the 22" Mod 700 Whelen. Note: these were not the highest velocities, but the highest velocities with the best accuracy!) In that first 35 AI. I loaded that 250X for 2600 with 53.5gr of the old AA2015BR. I could load it hotter easily at faster speeds, but the sweet spot 2600fps was bug-hole accurate and pressures pretty mild. I'm pretty sure I could have done the same with the standard case at the time! But at 3.4" long, it was sure pretty! I seated the 200X with a full caliber in the neck, no crimp on either. I did get an honest 2970fps (still do!) with 58gr H322. Interesting as this was the max load listed in Barnes first X Manual for the standard Whelen! This load was much faster than their listed velocity. Go figure. My present Mod 700 35 WAI does the exact thing, with both loads. I have to use 58.5gr to get 2950 with the new 200 TTSX. So, it isn't much...but I "wanted" that little "much", ha. No I like Mr Barsness, especially his older articles on the "500yd 30-06 elk Load....a 30-06 with 200 Nosler PT...I still use that bullet/R22 in any 30-06 for heavy game from hogs on up! Regarding from what I have seen by playing with the 35s, if I had found a Browning Lever in 358 Win back when I was a SR in High School, I would still have it and never ( well, maybe never, the Looney gene was still in there!) tried anything bigger! But, back in 1970, I was packing that earlier Mod 94 Classic and piling up deer/hogs in Texas, ha. True, no "need" to Improve any of the loads available now, and with some of these newer powders the old standards are really flexing their biceps! Its a great time to be a looney Handloader!

 

[gerry]

I ran the 250 gr Speer G.S. with RL 15 to over 2600 fps for a while, one time with a new can of powder the chronograph read over 2700 fps and a stiff bolt lift :shock: Reminded me to always back down the charge when getting a new can of powder and I also went away from RL 15 for quite a while. These days if I want to run a 250 Big Game gives me 2550 fps at reasonable pressure.

 

[truck driver]

Having both the 35 Whelen and the Ackely improved version I can see where there is little or no gain if your talking velocity alone. With the new powders you can safely push the Whelen to velocities over 2900fps with a 24" barrel and 200gr bullets the same as you can with the Ackely version.
Probably if I had a custom barreled and chambered 35 Whelen I wouldn't have had J.E.S. rebore a barrel and chamber it for the AI version.
I think I get more versatility out of the Ackely version than I do the standard version.
I can't compete with the authority that Mr Barsness or others who have access to the technical data provided by the ballistic laboratories.
I like others enjoy reading what they write but then that's what they get paid to do and like all writers form their own opinions and use them to influence their readers to buy products they have been paid to support.
Ackely himself says that not all caliber cartridges will see a large gain in velocity but it's the other benefits that makes it worth.
I wish I was a ballistic engineer so I could write with authority about the Improved versions but I'm not and can only go on self experience with the one I have.
One thing I do know is that I don't experience the pressure signs with the AI version that I have with the standard Whelen and the case design lets you run at higher velocities with less problems and less felt recoil.

 

[bobnob]

My 250 AI is my favourite calibre. Kind of like a 243 but with bullets just a little heavier, at the same speeds.

But in truth if starting from scratch, I'd just get a 6.5 Creed and call it good.

 

[mgood]

A gun store owner I used to work for has a 35 Whelen AI that he uses for aoudad (aka Barbary sheep). He has a different gun for everything and that's his aoudad gun. He has taken some nice ones. I have no idea how much improvement the AI version gives you or him. (I know that when I was considering something similar, he suggested a 338-06 or 338-06 AI, for whatever that's worth. It's an itch I'm going to have to scratch one of these days.)

 

[IdahoCTD]

I have several improved calibers but only 2 AI's and they are both 243AI's. I have or have owned a 7-338 Norma Imp., 30-358STA, 308 Baer, 30-338 Norma Imp, 30-338 Lapua Imp., 30-378 Weatherby Imp., 338 Baer, 358STA, and a 375-358STA for blown out improved type calibers. I have a 6.5x68 Imp on the list for builds this year too.

 

[mgood]

375-358STA

Would that be the same as saying a 375 H&H improved (if not quite as straight-walled and steep-shouldered as an Ackley Improved)?

 

[IdahoCTD]

It has a straighter wall but only a 35 degree shoulder. There is basically no difference in case capacity between the two. There is only about 2.5-3grs difference between a 375-8mm Rem mag (375JRS) with a 25 degree shoulder and a 375 H&H Imp or 375-358STA. That's less than 25fps. That's why I don't do the extra blown out steps anymore. Now days a 375 Ruger, 37 Nosler, or 375 Norma (375-338 Norma mag) would make more sense then the long 2.85" cases of the 8mm mag or 375 H&H if your going to improve it. I didn't even see a real significant velocity increase from a 375-358STA to a 375 RUM even though there is a decent case capacity increase.

 

[preacher]

I've had more small caliber wildcats and Improved rounds than the big ones. The 17 Hornet, 22 K-Hornet, .224 TTH, the 6x47 (223mag case) 6mm Bullberry ( 6mm/30-30 Improved) the above mentioned 257 Roberts AI, 6.5/284, 6mm/284, then I jumped to the 338/280 standard cased, not Improved case...280 brass then was nickel plated, nasty crap to Improve. It didn't do much so had that rifle converted to 338WM. I played with two 30-06 Improved rifles, one with 24"bbl one in 26"... not much in either was gained, but the 26" did around 2700 with the Sierra 200BT. It got reamed tot he RUM. The 24" bbl 375 H&H I had reamed to the 375 Weatherby showed much gain in my rifle. When I wanted more oomph in my 22: bbl 7mm Express ( 280) I just went ahead and had a take off 26" 7mm Rem Mag bbl put on...I figured I'd jump on ahead of what I could get with a longer bbl 280 AI, as much as I like the round. If I'm going to carry a 26" bbl I've learned I'd just as soon have the magnums.
I thought some on wringing out a long throated standard 257R again, but difficulty in finding 257 Roberts brass and Remington ammo was one of the major factors in myself choosing the 6.5 Creedmoor on my last rebarrel job, last year. Plus I just wanted to try it. I liked the round, but I sold it to pay some bills...in short, after being spoiled with that 6.5/284 on formed Winchester brass, it wasn't the same. That 6.5/284 is one really great round, my rifle had feeding problems with it though, so off it went. If I wanted another 6.5 I think I'd like to try the 6.5 Sherman. If I ever wanted another 338 Improved ( I have a little 338 FED that suits me now) I think I'd try the 338/280 AI now that we have Nosler brass available. Lots of choices....but for me, I'm really happy with my "no so useless to me" 35 Whelen AI, ha.