Interesting - Are You Thinking What I am Thinking??

[bullet]

I was doing more load work to day and had about four beginning loads to check out using the 150gr GS HV in my 30-06. I think I am getting closer with the E-Tip being a good load.

Well when I got to my fourth three shot load for the GS HV the accuracy was ok and velocities nothing special for a 150gr bullet in a 30-06 but look at the chrony and then the target.

Group size .736

Now I don't know about you all but that group and those readings say to me that this is a long range load for sure with such a small Average Deviation and Standard Deviation. Of course I won't know for sure until I test it a 400yds.

What is your take on the above?????

 

[FOTIS]

I can live with it!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[JD338]

bullet,

That is pretty darn good. I'd reshoot to verify and maybe play with the seating depth a little more. As it stands, you have a 400 yd load easy.

JD338

 

[bullet]

bullet,

That is pretty darn good. I'd reshoot to verify and maybe play with the seating depth a little more. As it stands, you have a 400 yd load easy.

JD338

JD338, I am of the same impression. I had a seating depth of 3.230" but I am thinking of coming up to 3.240" because my feeling is that I am just a little to deep. I weighed every bullet and used those that weighed EXACTLY the same, my brass was 2.484" and I made sure everyone was the EXACT same length. I squared my primer pockets and de-burred the necks, also measuring the neck to make sure thickness was the same. I trickled my compressed load slowly into the case so my powder would stack in a more uniform way.

This is an excellent velocity deviation. I will shoot it first at 200 yards and see if the group tightens; The GS HV bullets may not yet be asleep. Some projectiles take longer than others to go to sleep and this could be the case with these; the group could actually tighten up at longer distances. As you JD seem to think they will.

I have this feeling that they will tighten up somewhere out there and fly true for a long ways. I will test them soon.

 

[old #7]

That is why a chrony is such a valuable tool for the hand loader.
Without it you would have shot an everyday 3/4" to 1" group.
Those chony results are a direct result of the time and effort spent striving for consistancy at the loading bench.

 

[bullet]

That is why a chrony is such a valuable tool for the hand loader.
Without it you would have shot an everyday 3/4" to 1" group.
Those chony results are a direct result of the time and effort spent striving for consistancy at the loading bench.

Thanks old#7, I do take my time loading and trying for consistency because bullets, powder, brass, primers do cost a lot of money.

What makes me think the above and not only because the chorny is screaming that this could be a long range load, look at the triangle of the group. There is real consistency in that group, a consistency that says bullet stability is present.

 

[tjRoberts]

Ceratinly can't complain about that.
The velocity is very good, and a .3/4s inch group certainly gives you acuracy enough for a 400 Yard shot.
What kind of powder and primer are you using ?
I shot some loads recently with a .308 and my extreem spresd for 12 rounds was only 36 Ft.
That was using Fedeal 210s and IMR-4064.
Groups were about as good as yours.
If that load is not good enough for you , you are really asking alot of your eqipment.
So, if you are thinkig good to go, yes, I am thinking what you are thinking , . asuming you can get groups at or very near that good consistantly.
...tj3006

 

[GB300wm]

Looking good bullet. Play with oal and you could arrive at an extremelt accurate load. :grin:

 

[bullet]

Ceratinly can't complain about that.
The velocity is very good, and a .3/4s inch group certainly gives you acuracy enough for a 400 Yard shot.
What kind of powder and primer are you using ?
I shot some loads recently with a .308 and my extreem spresd for 12 rounds was only 36 Ft.
That was using Fedeal 210s and IMR-4064.
Groups were about as good as yours.
If that load is not good enough for you , you are really asking alot of your eqipment.
So, if you are thinkig good to go, yes, I am thinking what you are thinking , . asuming you can get groups at or very near that good consistantly.
...tj3006

I like the low deviation but the 3/4" is not acceptable if it does not stay tight at 300yds and plus. I have a 165gr load Sierra HPBT that is moving 2972fps and it is under a 1/4" for a five shot group.

 

[bullet]

Looking good bullet. Play with oal and you could arrive at an extremelt accurate load. :grin:

Yes, I could but velocities are to low for my expectations considering the charge of IMR4350 I used.

 

[DrMike]

The data certainly indicates that you have great technique at the reloading bench, which should be a real encouragement.

Consistency in loading techniques provides the foundation for accuracy, everything else being equal. When you have a standard deviation that is good, especially when it is reproducible with ten shots or more, you have confidence that the load should eventually give good accuracy.

 

[ArmyCW]

That is why a chrony is such a valuable tool for the hand loader.
Without it you would have shot an everyday 3/4" to 1" group.
Those chony results are a direct result of the time and effort spent striving for consistancy at the loading bench.

Thanks old#7, I do take my time loading and trying for consistency because bullets, powder, brass, primers do cost a lot of money.

What makes me think the above and not only because the chorny is screaming that this could be a long range load, look at the triangle of the group. There is real consistency in that group, a consistency that says bullet stability is present.

Consistency in the group, Yes Sir.. Looks good. Do you have a
concentricity gage to check neck runnout and bullet runnout?
I've been reading a Book called "Precision Shooting Reloading Guide".
From this the writer says the the 'straightness' of the bullet/cartridge combination is possibly the single most important item to check for shooting accuracy. Runnout should be within 0.001 to 0.002 for extreme accuracy. According to the writer one could reduce group size by 50% by this step alone. Interesting, I think. He says this is more important that seating depth or OAL. One other item struck me as checking primer pocket depth and deflashing the inside or primer pocket does affect pressure and velocity. That I didn't think of. He says lenght of primer pocket is critical... His words not mine. All brass case measurements are very important with the runnout being most important. Just thought I'd pass this along.

I have just sent for a RCBS concentricity gage and Lyman neck turning tools. I'll be checking all my brass alot more thouroughly now.
Kenny

edit... BTW good shooting and excellent chrony velocity's ..you are
on the right track.

 

[kraky]

I once chased all these little variables and can tell you that in my experience 95% of your accuracy will come from how much the gun likes the bullet, powder, seating depth combo.
A really good gun doesn't care much about weighing bullets, having primer pockets uniformed or even flash holes uniformed. It also doesn't care about having every case trimmed alike to the thousanth of an inch. I can tell you this because I know of custom built rifles that shoot 2.5" 500 yd groups with factory ammo and rarely see a huge diff in groups between factory and reloads.
Re runnout....it can affect long range accuracy. But I sure wouldn't say it affects it by 50%. The following is copy of a post from a long range shooting sight where a guy is forming cases from another cartridge...take a look at his accuracy....

"I would not worry about it, i'll bet you will still get good accuracy. When i necked down my 375 rum brass to 338 edge i was getting about 20 thousands runout with 338 rum neck sizing die. The accuracy with that much runout was great. My first group after load development was 3/4 inch at 325 yards. All 100 cases shot shot very good. After the first firing i get very little runout,but in all honesty they do not shoot any better than on mt first firing with a lot of runout. I think a good chamber will make up for a lot of runout. This probably won't be the normal for all rifles, but in my 338 edge runout does not seem to matter"

I'm not telling you guys who want to put in tons of hours in your prep not to do it. I'm just saying you might be better off spending more time at the range testing some different powders, seating depths, and improving shooting technique.

 

[bullet]

As mentioned I went to a faster powder and mag primers but had OAL to short. Last night I loaded 53grs of IMR4320 with a 215 Fed mag primer in Nosler Custom brass and got 3126fps but had an 1 1/2 group, but my OAL was 3.252". After viewing the group I decided to increase my OAL to 3.300" but due to recommendations from the experts with this bullet I will use 3.350" I will try this coming Thrusday morning and I do some shooting. This was not quite a max load and pressures signs are not present but do not use this load data in a 06 using conventional bullets.

 

[bullet]

Tonight when I loaded some more rounds I set my OAL at 3.327" Bullet touched lands at 3.339". Will see Thursday.

 

[DrMike]

Bullet,

Undoubtedly, your rifle likes that combination. However, I would say that you are practising good bench technique. A good consistent technique is as important as the selection of components. Looks to me as if you are doing a good job.

 

[bullet]

Thank you, kind of you to say so. After years of reloading I think I have found the most important reason and component of having low deviation and I am sure it has helped me accomplish good accuracy with my rifles over the years. I have more notes to go over and a few more experiments to preform. If what I believe is the reason and the most significant component for low deviation bears out I will take the leap and post my findings falling to the mercy of all the opinions of reloader's or should I say falling into the abyss of "You Don't Know What You Are Talking About." :lol:

 

[DrMike]

About the time I imagine I have the answer to all my reloading challenges, I find another variable. There are multiple variables--primers, powder, bullet, case--which change with each change in lot. The change may be incremental, but it is nevertheless real. All this says nothing of the factors that affect accuracy, including, but not restricted to the rifle itself which is always changing as the throat erodes and the barrel wears, bench technique and range conditions. Each must be controlled. When you consider that each of these variables is changing, the real secret, I am convinced, is consistency, both at the reloading bench and at the shooting bench, taking into account the range conditions and adjusting for the effects of shooting on the rifle itself. All this is what makes the art of handloading so fascinating.

Again, the two results you post certainly indicate that you have mastered one of the most important aspects of the art of handloading, which is good reloading technique.

 

[bullet]

About the time I imagine I have the answer to all my reloading challenges, I find another variable. There are multiple variables--primers, powder, bullet, case--which change with each change in lot. The change may be incremental, but it is nevertheless real. All this says nothing of the factors that affect accuracy, including, but not restricted to the rifle itself which is always changing as the throat erodes and the barrel wears, bench technique and range conditions. Each must be controlled. When you consider that each of these variables is changing, the real secret, I am convinced, is consistency, both at the reloading bench and at the shooting bench, taking into account the range conditions and adjusting for the effects of shooting on the rifle itself. All this is what makes the art of handloading so fascinating.

Again, the two results you post certainly indicate that you have mastered one of the most important aspects of the art of handloading, which is good reloading technique.

You have a wonderful way of summarizing all the variables and at the same time having an understanding of the nuances of the phenomenon that is involved in every aspect from the bench to the range and the circumstances involved. I believe there is one thing that sticks out at least in a general way when considering all the rifles I have loaded for and it is the common denominator that leaps out as having the greatest impact consistently through the years. Now this common thing is in light of all that you explained needs to be in place and understood as well as practice on a consistent bases. That being the case we need to understand that reloading is more than just science, data, physics, components, empirical evidence gathered and so on and on and on. It truly is also an art, a feel of things which only comes with practice, experience, talent and a given intuitiveness.

I will take the leap now in light of what you have said and what I have commented on and that is the common denominator is the consistency of the powder charge. I have over the years left steps out on purpose but one I could not leave out and have low deviations is the absolute EXACT SAME weight of the powder charge from round to round. I said it has to be exact no matter how long it takes you to work with the powder to get it exact. I do not use a digital scale, tried that and it was a good one but not as precise as my analog sale.

Now I know many will say you can't leave this out or that out but I have left all the other out at times in different ways just to see and when the powder charge was exactly the same from round to round I still got low deviation and many times out standing accuracy. Well now it begins. :lol:

 

[DrMike]

Then, just to complicate matters, know that a surprising number of benchrest shooters throw their charges by volume rather than by weight. There is a strong argument that can be made that volumetric measurement is as accurate, and perhaps even more accurate, than weight measurement in handloading. Again, this is what makes handloading such fun. I confess, that despite knowing of benchrest techniques, I prefer to weigh each charge.

I often have three or four rifles for which I am working up loads. These are rifles that belong to others. In such instances, because I am working under time constraints, I am forced to look for shortcuts. Consequently, I look for consistency and then focus on accuracy with a load that gives me a good consistent velocity.

Hey, it works for me.

I am confident that reproducible results are much more likely when we control the variables. This is true in the laboratory (whether it is a biochemical lab or a physics lab) and it is true at the reloading bench. After all, handloading is nothing less than applying physics to a sport that has engaged our attention. Good technique is necessary for good science, and good technique ensures good results in handloading.