Ladder Test Question

hunter24605 · Mar 29, 2017

Being relatively new to developing loads for precision shooting and have a quick question about ladder testing..It worked out well when I was dialing in my M70, but it got me wondering, will work for off the shelf, short barrel, semi auto carbines? i.e. AR15 223. I've got it shooting some decent 100 yd groups by just shooting groups of 4 shots with incremental charges from mid to max, stepping up .3 grains increments. but I soon realized I'm using up a bunch of powder and bullets doing it this way, and taking up a lot of range time. I realize it's never going to be a high precision rifle..But since I've gotten into reloading 2 years ago, I'm getting to where I want to squeeze very bit of performance from all my rifles. So, is ladder testing prudent with an AR?
Thanks.
I said OEM but I did ad an ALG Defense ACT trigger 3.5 lb

jimbires · Mar 29, 2017

how far do you shoot your AR's ? I shoot my ladders at 300 yards to start with . then I'll go to 400 to fine on the node . I'll even go to 500 to fine tune a node . to make a ladder work you need distance . I'm not sure what your short bbl might do . you could possibly get good results being at a closer distance .

hunter24605 · Mar 29, 2017

I've been shooting my groups at 100 yards..I can stretch it to 300 meters, the limit of the range. Which is where I did the ladder on my model 70...I was thinking I'd start at 200 meters for the AR and it's 16" barrel.

bdbrown66 · Mar 29, 2017

You can run a ladder at 100, I do it all the time. A tight group is a tight group, no matter the distance. It's just that the difference between a tight group and an OK group may be 1" or less at 100, whereas it may be 3" or more when you stretch out the distance. Really, what you're looking for is consistency. A good group will shoot to the same point of aim all the time. One thing to be aware of is that, the longer the distance, the greater the effect of any mistakes by the shooter. A little bit of a flinch at 100 will look really bad at 400; but that may be the shooter and not the load.

Personally, when I do a ladder I'll load a box of 20, 5 groups of 4 shots each. I'll measure the best 3 out of each 4-shot group, allowing for the fact that maybe I was responsible for the worst one. That's just my personal approach. YMMV.

hunter24605 · Mar 30, 2017

Thanks guys. Hopefully I can get out one day this week.

Sort of taking off on a tangent here, but I have the Lead Sled Solo and it has a velcro strap at the front barrel support to hold the barrel down. I never use it, but I see a few folks at the range strap theirs down really tight..It seems that kind of pressure on the barrel will cause erratic groups..Is my thinking wrong and I should be using the strap? I've thought maybe just very lightly strap it to help with muzzle lift.

DrMike · Mar 30, 2017

I've never been inclined to restrict the movement of the rifle with fixed restraints. I have used a lead sled on occasion, but I never restricted the rifle. As you stated, it appeared to me that it would introduce a new variable to the equation.

bdbrown66 · Mar 30, 2017

I shoot off of bags, and don't use a sled. The only way I would even think about strapping it down is if I could do it right where the barrel enters the receiver (ie. the chamber area). Anything forward of that risks interfering with the barrel harmonics.

jimbires · Mar 30, 2017

I never used a sled , but I just don't like the looks of how they work .

waveslayer · Mar 30, 2017

jimbires":342uta7n said:
how far do you shoot your AR's ? I shoot my ladders at 300 yards to start with . then I'll go to 400 to fine on the node . I'll even go to 500 to fine tune a node . to make a ladder work you need distance . I'm not sure what your short bbl might do . you could possibly get good results being at a closer distance .

Amen. A proper ladder test starts at 300 yards. Use a rear bag and bipod to test. Groups that shoot well at 100 doesn't necessarily translate to a good long range load.

At 100 yards, a large SD or more importantly an ES, won't even show up. If it's large enough because of a bad load you will be missing the target big time at any distance. That's why you start a ladder at 300. Plus you need a chrono to really find your node. To make it simple watch the 6.5 Guys video on load development, they do a good job. I agree and disagree with some of what they say.

Get a buddy and buy a Labradar for a chrono

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns