Long Range Shooting / "Hunting"

[jmad_81]

Lots of good insite here. I agree with most of it.

Guy, they person giving you crap for smoking a bear at 300 yards with a rifle that was more than enough stones for bear, and that shoots very well is a moron. I agree with your feelings on big game VS varmits as well. I don't eat varmits, and they don't seem to have any problem reproducing. No matter how much preditor preasure they get. Elk and deer on the otherhand don't fair so well against cats, bears, now wolfs, and peaple. Their lifes deserve more respect in my eyes.

Jory, I have seen you shoot, and you have tought me alot about shooting long range. I have no issue with the shots you take/make because you do it all the time. I also agree with you on the guys that don't shoot 20 shells a year, havn't cleaned their gun in three years, and can't hit a pie plate at 100 yards. I have a good friend of mine that does this. A few years ago he busted a spike elk at 30 yards three times with a 300 WM and some 180 PTs, and lost the elk. He blamed the bulllets, and said that the AB was a way better bullet, and that he would not have lost that elk with them.

Songdog, I'm with you on that one as well. Moving targets are alot less likely to end well than a target that is not moving twice as far.

CL, I agree with you on the rifle, a person has to be able to shoot their weapon very well no matter how far. I am lost on the car? As far as I know states limit your speed on the highway. I'm don't know of any states that limit how far you can shoot, unless it is by weapon limitation, ie. shotgun only. Us as hunters need to be man enough to know our limitations, and stick to them.

Dr. Mike, Well said, as usual.

I'm guilty of sticking elk with a bow and losing them, twice. I don't like shooting my bow as much and don't do it like i should. I no longer bow hunt. If you can't do it right, don't do it at all. I enjoy shooting LR, but in my eyes I'm nowere near good enough to be taking game past 500 yards at this point. I do enjoy the hunting and getting close if I can. But someday I'm going to draw my oregon big bull tag (6 years out) and if I get a 380 bull at 800 yards with no way to get closer I want to be able to take that shot, and not have to wait another 20 years to get the tag. I'm going to try to get as close as I can, but if 800 yards is as close as I can get, I want to be good ehough to do it well.

I have no problem with the long range shooting schools. I would rather have guys shooting that far that have had propper instruction, than guys that think they can without any instruction.

 

[cloverleaf]

My "corvette analogy" was simply to illustrate that if you push the limits (whether car, or your own personal skill and equiptment) sooner or later there will be a problem. No way was I advocating regulated limits. CL

 

[Desert Fox]

Maybe my last posting of a 603 yards kill must have spawn some raw emotion here regarding this very touchy subject. Sorry about that . Let me begin by saying that before you pass your judgement on some of us who practice the craft, why not have an open mind. I can't consider myself a long range hunter yet by any means. I am however is a practitioner of the craft. I had only 3 - 600 + yards kill in my belt. All three were one shot one kill. I missed a total of two... all clean missed. One a 645 yards and another a 700 + yards. As you can see there's only a few animals I've killed at long range. That's because, I don't do these often. The condition have to be close to perfect before I pull a trigger on an animal a long ways away. I spent quite a fair amount of money and time honing my skill. I owe it to the animal I hunted... and that includes vermin.

Here's how I pulled that 603 yards shot just to give you an insight as to how's it's done.

The ballistic data of the 140 grain Berger Hunting VLD I used on this hunt, was already pre-loaded in my Dell Axim Pocket PC loaded with Exbal Ballistic Program, when I left California. This was the result of months and months of extensive load development and testing and fine tuning. I'd practice shooting often with my rifle to a maximum distance of 600 yards, about the limit of our club shooting range, and I had complete confidence that the rifle and bullet were up to task.

It was late in the afternoon, the sun was just above the horizon and the temperature was dropping like a rock. I kept checking and crosschecking the data coming out of my Kestrel so that I can update the data on the Dell. For 30 minutes, I was watching the doe grazing at the edge of a food plot 300 yards away. I have 3 doe tag. Twice, I talked myself out in shooting the doe. Something inside me kept saying, just wait a few more minutes. Then out of nowhere, the small buck appeared. I grabbed my Swaro Laser range finder and ranged the distance. Three quick reading confirmed that the buck was 308 yards away. Only one problem however,,, there's a group of cows directly behind the buck. So I waited. In the meantime, I took one more reading with my Kestrel and it showed that the temperature had dropped a few more degrees, down from 55 to 44 degrees, the barometric pressure dropped a notch also, from 29.15 to 28.05 inches. The humidity remains constant however at 27%. I hurried up and updated all the numbers on the Dell and ranged the buck again since it started to moved towards the middle of the field, following the doe. The swaro reads 580 yards now and the buck was not stopping. Finally at about 600 yards, both the doe and the buck stop for a bite. It's now or never! I made three quick successive readings with the Swaro and the average distance I was getting was 603 yards. I grabbed my Dell, punched in the number and push re-calculate. The result was instantaneous. The elevation calls for a 10.75 MOA correction from my 110 yards zero, Wind was coming from northeasterly direction at a steady 3 mph from 4 oclock. This was about 3/4 MOA of correction according to Exbal which is about 5" at that distance. I know just from my observation during some of my shooting practice that the 140 Berger will have a spin drift of about 4.5" at 600 yards, which will almost canceled out the wind of the moment. I spun the Vortex turret counter clockwise and stopped right at 11 MOA mark. I clicked back once and hold the crosshair steady at the center of the deer's body, just slightly behind the shoulder and applied a steady rearward pressure on the trigger. I was oblivious of the of the rifle going off. All I saw was the deer flipping on it's side. It was probably dead before it hit the ground.

 

[DrMike]

DF,

Great account of precisely what any of us would call an ethical shot. You practised your craft and polished your skills and called your shot. No complaint from me.

 

[SJB358]

Great story DF. Good details also. That is a great shot! Scotty

 

[FOTIS]

My problem is with the so called hunters who go out specifically looking for a long shot. There are plenty of those. Those I do not agree with.

 

[Songdog]

My problem is with the so called hunters who go out specifically looking for a long shot. There are plenty of those. Those I do not agree with.

POP... you and I see eye to eye on lots of stuff... but this ain't one. I have no problem with anyone looking for any type of hunting opportunity... provided it's within the confines of what's legal, and ethical. At the end of the day, all that matters is a critter with a hole through both lungs (or pump-station). THAT'S IT... all the rest of this is just pissing in our own pool. I guarantee the average guy "specifically looking for a long shot" has practiced a lot more than your average orange army clown. Most of those folks bought their rifle, had it bore sighted, and shot it at the range half a dozen times... seen it MANY times. Who do you think is more apt to put a round in the azz of a deer? The guy who's been shooting all summer at ranges out to 800 yards... or the guy who's fired half a box of Core-Locts out of his Wal-Mart '06?

If you "don't agree with it"... then don't do it. But as far as I'm concerned... the "long range" crowd is buying tags same as you and me... and for the most part, they seem a little more educated and respectful of game and land than your average camo clad Joe with Savage .270 and a Simmons "zoom" scope.

 

[FOTIS]

When I wrote the above this is what came to mind. Last year I was on one other forum reading. One guy built a gun specifically for LRH. When it was completed he post pictures of it and declared, "I can not wait till next elk season. Hopefully I will get a chance at an elk from 800-1000 yards to try this baby out".
Now to me this sounds like a man who needs a boost in the ego/testicular department, not a hunter. Why would you go specifically out of your way to do this?

I remember I got into an argument with a guy who shot a bison at 1066 yards. The 300 SMK penciled through at that range and he tracked the buffalo until it led to death. Now you're dealing with one of the dumbest creatures in the world and you can not get closer? No, the fact is you do not want to get closer. That way you get stroked by your buddies on line for your heroics.

And by the way. That huge argument that JD338 brought up about the 1203 yard elk earlier? .....Yup that was me that raised the BS flag. The guy shot at that range, he hit the elk in the head, though he was aiming for the shoulder and he got 55 purple hearts and 40 letters of commendation for it on that site. So I called BS.

 

[Songdog]

I hear you... but, that's their right... and as long as it ends in a dead critter... then what difference does it make? It ain't any different than guys taking marginal shots at "trophy" critters... they want that bone, and the admiration of their peers... just like the long range guy. Doesn't matter that they took a questionable shot... because hey, it was inside 200 yards... and my .300 UltraShortLongRanger can anchor stuff even when I shoot it in the azz.

Labeling people "Shooters" vs. "Hunters" is a slippery slope my friend... very slippery. The internal bickering just makes it easier for those who look to take rights away. Archery guys fighting Front-Stuffers... Front-Stuffers crapping on rifle guys... rifle guys talking about "Long Range 'Shooters'"... long range guys bashing hound hunters... Hound hunters trashing bait guys. WE ARE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT... sharp stick, round ball, Partition, VLD... it doesn't matter, we all like venison on the plate... and we all need each others' votes.

I feel the same thing about guys who hunt bears over bait... or with hounds, that you do about guys looking for LR shots. I don't like it... I think it's "cheating"... I don't think it's "Hunting"... but I don't talk trash about those guys... I just don't do it. How about shooting stuff right under a feeder... ala the Texas hog hunt? T'ain't the way I'd git-r-done... but I'm sure your kids had fun... and it's legal, so that's all that really matters.

 

[FOTIS]

Well this is why there are places like these, so we can air our opinions and our feelings.

You feel baiting game is "cheating", OK I can respect that.

I feel congratulating a guy for missing an elk, even though he hit it elsewhere, at a distance he had no business shooting is idiotic at best.

One man's trash is another man's treasure.

 

[Songdog]

I feel congratulating a guy for missing an elk, even though he hit it elsewhere, at a distance he had no business shooting is idiotic at best.

I concur... but what does long range have to do with that? I'm thinking there's a lot of stuff that gets kilt every year... by being hit someplace other than where the bullet was intended.

There's an underlying issue here... and that's shot placement... plain and simple. If you can put a bullet through the vitals... then bombs away. If not... get closer... or learn how to shoot. Stuff gets wounded all the time by folks who can't shoot... and that's a fact. Doesn't matter what the distance is... if you can't shoot... don't! Range is simply one of the factors that a guy should consider when trying to decide if trigger pulling is appropriate...

I'm thinking the 8" between a dude's ears... is a lot more of a determining factor than the 500 yards between muzzle and fur.

 

[FOTIS]

I feel congratulating a guy for missing an elk, even though he hit it elsewhere, at a distance he had no business shooting is idiotic at best.

I concur...

Then we pretty much agree. :mrgreen:

Seriously, I believe, the incompetent should throw their bullets at paper, not at game, and when you can get closer , do so. Even at the risk of looking less manly.

Do you agree with that?

 

[1Shot]

I have come to this conclusion from over 40 years of big game hunting and watching people shoot at rifle ranges. About 75% of the people I have observed should not shoot at a game animal over 100 yards away. And that is stretching it a bit because 50% of them will not hit where they were aiming but will usually kill the game if they don't flat out miss. They will have to trail up a gut shot animal a lot of the time.

On the other hand I have observed, and done it myself, some mighty long shots made on game by people that had the ability and equipment to do it with. I have no problem with those that KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING taking long shots but the average person has no business trying.

 

[JD338]

This is an interesting topic and ethics can get heated up with a lot of passion.

I stated the above in my first post on this thread.
We all come from different regions and have to use various methods to take game. So long as its legel, I think most all of us here are ok with it. Agree or disagree, as hunters we need to stick together.
Assisting nimrods sight in their rifles in the past has been a real eye opener for me. I would say that half the "hunters" out there are not capable of shooting much past 100 yds. Shooting 1-2 boxes 0f shells to "sight in" just isn't enough. Most deer shot here in MI are taken well inside 100 yds. Puts these fellas out west and they are in trouble.

The bottom line, we have to know our limitations.

JD338

 

[DrMike]

The bottom line, we have to know our limitations.

This is where some of the old curmudgeons (I'll include myself, here) need to take these nimrods under tutelage and ensure that they know what they are doing. I seldom go to the range without spending time instructing newer shooters.

 

[Songdog]

The bottom line, we have to know our limitations.
JD338

Ain't that an Eastwood line?

 

[FOTIS]

The bottom line, we have to know our limitations.
JD338

Ain't that an Eastwood line?

Dirty Harry... 8)

 

[Elkman]

I have been working with a rifle for a little over a year now trying to develop my shooting skils and equipment so that if the situation arises that I might bump out my current 400 yard comfort level on big game to 500 or so. So far I have been stymied by equipment. Those of you who are proficent at the 600 yard mark already know how difficult this can be. I believe that many of you here would be proficient at greater distances with practice and some side boards to the shot such as I have placed on myself. What I "did not" understand when I started this quest was how difficult it was going to be to get the hardware tuned up for the extra distance. At 600 yards a 1/4" adjustment on your scope equates to 1 1/2 inches. Be off that much in your sightin and wobble a little and you can cover a 1/2 of a foot real fast. So everything has to be set up just right. The rifle I choose, shot well at a 100 yards but when I started going out farther it would not hold point of aim, (POA)and for no reason group center would move left and right and then back again. The rifle went to a local smith, and was pillar bedded, the action glassed and foreend stiffened, a new trigger installed and tested. Initial 100 yard testing showed 1/2 min angle groups. Groups at 300 showed the same problem. The 1 year old scope was returned for repairs they were made and the rifle retested. Other than reducing the size of the wandering the POA still was not consistent. The rifle is now in the hands of Hill Country Rifles in texas for their accurazing process and will be returned in Feb. Then I get to try again. The point of this is rant is, as everyone says you must be profecient and comfortable that you can make your shot cleanly and ethicially. But as also pointed out you must also pratice at the ranges for which you are planning to shoot. Your equipment may do well at 100 yards (the point of the 100 yard discussion) but in order to fully understand how everything works at long range you must consistently shoot at the range. If you shoot well at 300 practice at 600. If you are proficient at 600 then 300 is a slam dunk. Of course the rifle must have adequate energy at those ranges for a clean kill and the bullets must be constructed for game. Just my .02 on a difficult but fascinating subject. Hope I made sense!!!! :grin: :grin: :grin:

 

[Guy Miner]

You make a lot of sense Elkman.

Well stated!

 

[cloverleaf]

JD makes a point that is critical here. I have annual experience helping guys "sight in" as well. Some of the things I see make my skin crawl. Mighty hunters who cant hit a cow in the tit with a tin cup and then procede to blame everything else in the world and walk away with a gun half sighted in. There are those who will listen and learn. Thats why we are there. But people like the other kind are the ones who get sucked into the idea that they can hit a deer of antelope at 400 yards cause they saw some guy smack one at a 1000 are the ones that worry me. Better call a spade a spade, if ya head shoot an elk and you were aiming for the boiler room thats proof enough. Stuff happens, why intentionally increase the odds. Its just as reckless as a half sighted in rifle. CL
Elkman stated with rel experience what I couldnt in three posts. Course, I have been known to take the long way around the barn.... :lol: Nuff said, I'm done with this one. Good post though Guy! CL