Maturing as a Hunter

Sure jbdre there are those of us that can make use of the extended range of the magnums especially in the mountains, open plains, or bean fields of some areas of the country. I’m not knocking magnums as a cartridge as they have their place. To me it is just plain wasteful though too watch so many of these modern super high velocity cartridges coming out that you and I both know that will not survive. It’s just more about marketing than about ballistics or hunting. I’m a fan of the .338-06 and feel for it will do in skilled hands most everything the .338 Winchester Magnum will with less recoil making it easier to master for the majority of the general hunting public that may take years to go through a box of shells. There are times like for grizzly or costal brown bears a .338 Mag would be better than a .338-06 but for my taste at those times I would rather go up in caliber to say .375. I was really hoping the .375 Steyr would catch on more. I loved my .375 H&H and for guides it sure packs a wallop but again for an average hunter at the distances you want to be shooting at bear it is easier for someone that simply does not handle such a heavy caliber a lot a better chance of placing that all important first shot where it should go with a .375 caliber bullet’s authority. When I practiced even with my .375 H&H I fired from 20 to 60 rounds but most people I know take their rifle to the range before season and fire it just to see if it is still holding zero and that is it. I have used the 7MM Mag, .300 Win. Mag. and they are both great but I see guys with them hunting heavy cover areas with scopes you can watch the space station with and I just shake my head. Have you seen the guys gut shoot a muley buck with a .30-06 he can’t shoot accurately only to show up next year with a .300 Winchester Magnum? I just think too many men get into the macho thing of bigger is better rather than learning to be deadly accurate with lesser cartridges than the latest greatest super magnum which does not help them shoot better or farther because they just plain can’t shoot accurately. My comments are directed not at the skilled marksman but at the run of the mill average everyday hunter who is supposed to be the market for these firearms.

Black bear hunting is a growing area of interest here in the USA. I am hoping that rather than more magnums the gun and cartridge makers will have a moment of sanity and that the introduction of the .338 Federal is a trend and not a fluke. There is a need for medium bore timber rifles for bear and this time I hope they coordinate with the gun writers to promote how munch better off the average hunter would be with such a combination than the latest super magnum for his purposes. Then maybe more rifle makers will make more rifles for the cartridge and it will catch on. We have seen such great cartridges as the .358 Winchester, and the .35 Whelen languish partly I feel due to a lack of rifles designed to handle their recoil. Light rifles are nice to carry but let’s face it we carry rifles to shoot and if they get the reputation of hurting the shooter then people stop buying them except for us hard core types. We’ve all seen the big men cry at shooting a .30-06 and 90 pound women that can shoot a .458 Winchester Magnum accurately but they are the exceptions. I like the concept of the new .338 Federal especially for a black bear timber rifle that you can shorten the barrel to 20” for fast handling and still pack an awesome amount of power in. Now we need more makes of rifles. Even the .350 Remington Marnum is back but it is hampered by this same lack of rifle make choices. Talk about your ultimate black bear rifle especially if Nosler would come out with a .275 grain Partition for it you could even make a grizzly take notice with that type penetration.
 
It is regularly stated in Jeff Cooper's columns that "If you cannot flatten an elk with a 270, you probably wouldn't be able to flatten him with a 375 either." I have never hunted elk so I won't claim any authority on those animals.

However, my general approach is this: get as close as possible then place the bullet properly. This is true whether shooting cottontails with a 22 rimfire or whitetails with a 50 caliber smoke pole. Sometimes this is a half-hour task and other times it takes all day. I get as much thrill from the stalk as from the shot. While I don't believe you could ever have too much gun, I would rather hammer him at 50 yards than try to stretch across a bean field.

Others have their own preferences, and to each his own.
 
It happens that I took my last Elk with a .270 and 130 Nosler Partition but I would have prefered more rifle. I was actually hunting Mule Deer and only picked up the Elk tag at the last minute in an over the counter purchase. The Bull was a large 5x5 and the .270 was enough. I agree that the magnums are not for the one box a year hunter but that certainly doesn't mean they don't have a place. As for getting close - that is neaver a bad idea. However, there are places where getting close is simply not an option. That is where the magnum shines. They do flatten trajectory but more importantly they hit harder way out there. That hitting harder can be very important, especially when the animal is larger than a deer.
 
10-4. Those belted bottles do have a purpose. Here in the midwest I have been able to get by without them. While I am at ease with my 270 on deer, I'm not about to go after an elk or moose with it. Some people think this is adequate. I would be more comfortable with more horsepower, whether at 50 yards or 500. Once again, to each man his own preference.

I have long held that if the chance to take an elk does arise, I will be investing in a 300 Winchester. Not that there is anything magical about it, I just have a thing for that caliber.
 
I think it is hard to equate yesterday with today. In the black powder era they were not limited to a week to ten days to get the job done nor did they have a small fortune invested in the effort. Though I have gone home empty handed from some of my best hunts, when I do shoot I want to kill as quickly and humanely as possible. I rarely seem to get the textbook broadside shot at under a hundred yards and have found that a .338 Win. Mag. with 250 Partition can get the job done from any reasonable angle or range leaving little need for excuses. None of this is to say that lesser catridges won't do well also as they do so every season and a big gun is useful only if you can handle it. Some people seem to take pride in seeing how small a catridge they can get away with argueing that bullet placement is all that counts but if you have ever tracked a wounded Elk those bigger catridges begin to look a lot better. That being said, a 30-06 with 180 Partition will also work wonders on almost anything that walks. Good hunting!
 
Hi US Hunters!!

We here in South Africa have a rather different approach to the 'Energy' VS 'Killing power' debate.
Momentum is the most important factor because without sufficient momentum you cant reach the vitals through the muscle and bone.

To me the main application of magnums should be do drive heavier bullets at velocity that standard calibers can't.
220gr @ 2700 fps out of a 300H&H VS
220gr @ 2400 fps out of a 30-06

A 30-06 with 150gr bullets shoots flat enough to all practical ranges!

When using standard bullets they usaully penetrate a lot better when a lower velocity is used and retain more weight

I shoot a 303Br 180gr @ 2500 fps and 9,3x62 286gr @ 2300fps and both are more than adequite of killing game in the Kudu class.
When hunting Eland i use my 9.3 exclusively because of the vastly superior penetration it gives me.
 
Welcome Transvaal! The debate here in the United States takes the form it does because by far the most hunted animal here is deer of one kind or another. Truthfully, just about ANY caliber or catridge can take a deer though every now and then one seems to find a bulletproof one. Elk are not bulletproof either but in heavy cover with a marginal angle they can be a challenge especially if you want the animal down with no tracking. The kind of places a wounded Elk can get into are best avoided if at all possible. A heavy for caliber bullet at medium velocity is never a bad choice regardless of what is being hunted. If I had to give up my .338 I would start looking for a 9.3x62 right away. I also like to shoot my .375 H&H but it is really more than needed for anything on this side of the pond. Now if we could import a few Cape Buff or lions for our deer woods things would get interesting quick. Thinking about some of our good'ole boys going eyeball to eyeball with an old Dugga Boy reminds me of those famous last words- "Hold my beer Harold and watch this!"
 
Hi JBDRE

I agree fully! I know someone here that uses a 338 wih 300gr bullets and and during penetration tests it actually out penetrated the 9.3 and the 375.

The sectional density of a 300gr 338 bullets is phenomenal!

A local rifle manufacturer produces a rifle called the 338 Sabi which seems like it uses a 9.3x62 case, necked down to 338 that launches a 250gr bullets @ 2350fps. www.sabirifles.co.za.

I feel it is our responsibility to the animal to use the right cartridge for for the job(to penetrate from any reasonable angle to reach the vitals at practical hunting(not shooting range).

As Gregor Woods put it 'it's not what a cartridge can do but what it can be relied on to do day after day.
 
Transvaal, if it wouldn't be too much trouble could you send me the subscription address of Magnum magazine? I haven't read one in years but remember that it contained some very interesting articles. Our shooting magazines seem to rehash the same old stuff over and over again and I have just about quit reading them. In fact, most are just big add magazines.

I haven't tried a 300gr bullet in my .338 yet but have heard stories about its tremendous penetration - apparently not exaggerated. Still, I've yet to recover a 250gr Nosler from anything I have shot but I haven't stuck one in anything bigger than an Elk either. I'm a great fan of the .338 Win Mag. Mine is a Winchester Model 70 Classic Super Grade and it shoots as well as any rifle I have ever owned.

Incidently, I have owned several Model 70 Classics in .375 H&H but could never get one that would shoot as well as I wanted. Last year I bought a CZ Safari Magnum in .375 and after a little tuning wow! That thing thinks its a target rifle! At 100yds it cuts one big hole with three shots. At two hundred it is about one inch and at 250 still under one and one-half inches. I have never seen a .375 shoot like that. The load is a .300gr Nosler Partition on top of Winchester 760 powder at about 2650fps. Now if I could just find a handy Cape Buff to test it on.
 
Paparock

It seems that you equate killing power with velocity( your 338-06 against 338WM)

I wouldn't fully agree with that, more velocity wont make a bear or buffalo die quicker, you actually raise the posibilty of bullet failure because of the close range something like charge happens.

I'm not saying you should shoot a 250grainer @ 1700fps!
I'm saying that a 250grainer @ 2800 or 2500fps make no practical difference.

I've seen lots of Kudu die just as quick shot with an 30-06 180gr @ 2600fps as with 300H&H @ 2900fps.
Yes the magnum gives you an ttrajectory advantage on longer shots but then again every second hunter owns a rangefinder or has a hunting friend that owns one.

If you put 10 hunters around a campfire and tell thenm to invent the best hunting cartridge ever, you'll end up with 15 ultimate cartridges.

jbdre

The CZ is very underrated is the US but in Africa lots of PH's use the BRNO or CZ as the are named now because of their reliability, good fit and balance and accuracy

Here follows Magnum Magazine Details:

Magnum Subscriptions
PO Box 35204
NorthWay
4065
South Africa
E-mail mail@manmagnum.co.za
Fax +27 31562 8389

Subscription fees amount to R335 ( +- $50)
 
Thank you for the information Transvaal. As for CZ, if my rifle is at all typical they make a very fine gun indeed.
 
Anyone hear of Roy Weatherby? Do you think his hydrostatic shock theory holds water(sorry for the pun)? I watched my brother shoot a 225lb whitetail in Canada with a .257 Wby w/100gr bullet(can't say what one, let's just say it retained a lot of weight) about 3500fps, at about 175 yards. The deer flopped 3 yards, and it had a hole the size of my fist in its shoulder(the only good shot he had). I was impressed. Just a thought.
 
My thinking is that for deer size game there may be something to it but I have never seen larger animals that seemed too impressed by it. I had rather punch a hole deep into the vitals or all the way through than rely upon shock.
 
Are we actually arguing with Roy Weatherby? Someone also seems to think Jack O'Conner knew nothing. I hate to break it to everyone but deer and elk are not invinsible. Way to many have been dropped with insuficient calibers and energies. Anything that can be killed by an arrow travelling at 200fps is not apt to tell you the difference between a 270 or a 300. I remember a G&A issue several years ago where a guide had carried a 243 win for better than 20 years and never lost an elk. Do I intend on ever carrying one for elk? NO. But this old argument is of no real effect. In the end shot placement is all that counts. There is at least one account of an elephant falling to a 22 hornet.
 
Shot placement is paramont but doing so with a larger caliber is good insurance. Not saying you need a magnum for elk but if you can shoot one, why not?
My motto is "there is no replacement for displacement". :wink:

JD338
 
I agree with JD338, shot placement is the most important part of the equation, but as someone else stated in an earlier post on this same thread, what good is placement if the projectile... 200fps arrow or 3000 fps 180 grain AB,PT,BT, or what ever, if it can't get thru the armor and into the vitals.Muzzle breaks are a good answer to recoil.But to acquire the shot placement, YOU have to know YOUR limitation on distance and adhere to it for the sake of the game animal. To me, being able to do this and not stretching my effective range to the capability of my 300 winnie's range, is about as far as I can stretch my maturity as a hunter!
 
I read a story somewhere about an Inuit hunter feeding people from his village using his 218 Bee. He never lost a game except one time when he took a shot at a Brown bear. Moral of the story. Use enough gun :)
 
Transvaal":cesttnwx said:
I feel it is our responsibility to the animal to use the right cartridge for for the job(to penetrate from any reasonable angle to reach the vitals at practical hunting(not shooting range).

As Gregor Woods put it 'it's not what a cartridge CAN do but what it can be RELIED on to do day after day.

Or if you use a Bow or Black Powder rifle the same applies
 
Back
Top