New User Intro and a question.

[Dougfir]

Hi,

Just wanted to briefly introduce myself. My name is Doug and I am a relatively new reloader (I've been at it for just over a year now). I don't have any friends who reload, so I've learned from books and bits of help I get from users on other sites. I've heard this one is an excellent source of information and that's what I'm hoping to find.
At this point, I reload for 7mm-08, .308 and .30-06 and have largely had good luck(I killed my first critter with handloads last year; an antelope), though I've also had some puzzling experiences that have led me to want to learn more about this activity.

Here's my current situation and question:

I'm in the process of working up a load for my 7mm-08 using Barnes 140 TTSX's (Hornady cases, WLR's). I've been working with Big Game and RL 17. One thing I've noticed is that there is a pretty big difference between the published data for Big Game between Barnes and Ram Shot. I did my initial testing using the Barnes data, which puts the max load at just over 49 grains (Ramshot lists it as 47.8). Working up through the loads, I started to see more primer flattening that I'm used to seeing, as well as some very slight cratering. It caught my eye, but the bold lift was still easy and velocities looked on track with published data. A little below max, the primers stopped looking flattened and velocities jumped higher than expected, still easy bolt lift. I did fire one at 49 grains, but that one did make the bolt lift noticeably harder, so I quit.

Clearly, there are pressure issues at the top-end here. However, at 47.5 grains, the accuracy was outstanding (7/16" literally the best group this rifle has ever shot) and velocity was acceptable (about 2710 from my 22" barrel). I'd love to go with this load, but it does show primers that are moderately flattened and some very slight cratering. And, it's right up near the top according to Ram Shot's data. What do you think? Does this sound like a safe load? I've not run into much pressure in previous loads, so I guess I'm looking for a little feedback on this one. Thank you!

 

[bdbrown66]

What brand of primer were you using? Federal primers, for example, are very soft and will show flattening at lower pressures than some other brands. Personally, if I wasn't getting sticky bolt lift or any signs other than some primer flattening, I wouldn't worry about it. If you start to see something like extractor wipe, etc., you're over the limit.

 

[Dougfir]

I'm using Winchester Large Rifle, which is what I've generally used for everything.

 

[mjcmichigan]

Doug, welcome!

I don’t load a 7mm08 so can’t comment. Others will weigh in. If you didn’t check in on the welcome thread, stop over there and introduce yourself to the forum moderators.

7/16” sounds lethal at 2700+


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[DrMike]

Welcome aboard, Doug. It sounds as if you've caught the fever. And you will meet some good people here who are quite knowledgeable. They should be able to answer most questions you might have.

Published data can vary quite a bit. This can be due to several reasons--different equipment, different barrel lengths, different component combinations, different lots of components. Some testing is conducted with universal receivers and some is conducted using manufactured rifles. Any of these factors can introduce differences.

Whilst the published data from reputable manufacturers is pressure-tested, ultimately, you are responsible for what is safe in your own firing system. Did you, by chance, determine what sort of velocities you are getting with your loads? You can gain a wealth of information from that information.

On the whole, it doesn't sound as if you have an unsafe load.

 

[ShamrockShooter]

Just a suggestion but do you have any spent shells from factory loaded 708 ammo that you could look at the primers on to see if they look the same as your hand loads?

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[ShamrockShooter]

Also factory load 140 Winchester super x shoot about 2625 fps out of my wifes 7 08 10 feet from the muzzle. Box says should be 2800. It is a youth model so it only has an 18.5 inch barrel which robs the velocity.

As long as you are not shooting past 250 yards or so, 100 fps probably won't make much difference. I'd stick with the slower load that punches tight groups

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[Divernhunter]

I load for the 7-08. I have quite a bit of data for accuracy over my chronological in a Tikka T3 Lite.
"I" would not use the 140gr TTSX bullet as the case size does not give it really good speed. You did notice that the faster you push Barnes bullets the more accurate they tend to be. Also a Barnes bullet acts like a lead core bullet 30% heavier. So that 140gr acts like a 182gr lead core bullet which you would not normally use in a case that small. We shoot 110gr TTSX and they kill deer and pigs just fine. A friend was going to use it on Elk but never got a shot. If the 110gr TTSX scares you go to the next step up and maybe the LR version since it will open at lower speeds.
The Barnes and other mono bullets like speed for best terminal performance. The Barnes likes speed for best accuracy. The Barnes NEEDS a lot of bullet jump for accuracy which will also allow a hotter load without primers getting flat or other pressure problems. Seat the bullets so that the top relief groove is just showing and NO CRIMP.
One last thing start with a super clean barrel when using Barnes or Swift bullets. That means no #9......use real cleaners. Then shoot all you want of barnes. If you want to shoot a regular jacketed bullet do so after the Barnes but then you will need to redo the cleaning. If you only shoot Barnes you can shoot a lot of them. I have shot about 250 Barnes in my 7-08 without cleaning and they still shoot into basicly one hole IF I do my part.

Try the 110gr TTSX with a max charge of RL15. It works real good.

 

[6mm Remington]

Dougfir I cannot comment on loading for the 7mm-08 or 308 but I can suggest a couple bullets.
7mm-08: 140 gr. Accubonds, Partitions, or E-tips
308: 150 gr. Accubonds, Partitions, or E-tips
165 gr. Accubonds, Partitions, or E-tips

30-06: 165 gr. AccuBond, Partition, or E-tips
180 gr. AccuBond, Partition, or E-tips

H4350 or IMR4350 are two great powders to start with in the 30-06.
Two 30-06 rifles I have had both shot great with the same exact load.
Winchester brass
Federal 210 match primer (or CCI 200)
Nosler 165 gr. AccuBond, or Partition
IMR4350 - 57.4 grs.
Of course you would have to work up to that in your own particular rifle, but it sure shoots very well for me.

David

 

[Polaris]

Welcome Doug, you will probably learn more than you care to learn here. Some folks get a little overly complex in their recommendations, giving you tips more in line with what a benchrest or F-class competitior might need rather than what you need for basic hunting and shooting.

I prefer a keep it simple philosophy. IMR 4064, Varget or R15 would be my choice for all 3 of your cartridges, with the possible exception of 30-06 if you wish to use 180 grain bullets. R17 or IMR 4350 should be a good bet there. Also R17 in the 7-08 if you use the heavier range of bullets. These are easy to find good loads with. Spherical powders can be funny in terms of finding top accuracy and not having pressure spikes.

I agree with above post, the 140 TTSX is too long to be optimal in your 7mm-08. Your load does sound a little hot based on your description, but as above, you should compare to a factory load fired in your rifle.

For deer sized game, I would go with a cup-and-core soft point or a ballistic tip. If you feel the need for a heavier bullet in the 7-08, may I suggest the 145 Speer Hot Cor flat base. In general flat based bullets are easier to get top accuracy out of, and they will utilize your limited case capacity more efficiently. In the real-world, they will still shoot plenty flat and hard to 300+ yards. Ditto for the .308 with 150-165 gr bullets, flat based spitzer will be optimal. If Elk are on your menu, either the Partition or Speer Grand Slam would be fine choices in the 7-08, or the AccuBond in the lighter weights. With heavier weight boat tails, you will run into the same bullet length vs capacity issues you are having with the Barnes in 7-08 and .308. Hope this is helpful. In the 30-06, with it's ample capacity and longer neck, the sky is the limit as far as experimenting with exotic bullets. In the short action rounds, you are a bit limited to lighter weights in the "long" bullets, and lower BC "short" bullet in the heavier weights to still optimize velocity.

 

[Dougfir]

Thanks for the responses. Polaris, as it happens, my regular deer load for this rifle is a 145 Speer Hot Cor over IMR 4350. My goal is to come up with a single load that I'm comfortable using for just about anything from deer and antelope up to elk, which I do hunt sometimes and moose (just in case I ever get the urge to do that). I liked the idea of it being a lead-free load. However, this whole discussion may be a moot point. Since posting this, I've shot that 47.5 grain load of Big Game a couple more times and have been unable to replicate that great group. In face, the more recent groups have been ok to terrible. It does seem like my rifle doesn't care for all-copper bullets. I've gone through the 140 ttsx and the 145 LRX now with rotten luck. Maybe it would like the 120, a lot of people seem to like that one. I will admit a slight prejudice against small bullets moving really fast. I may move on to the 140 AccuBond, which seems to work well in every 7mm-08.

 

[Guy Miner]

Welcome!

The Barnes is a great hunting bullet, but the all-copper design is quite soft, and can lead to excess fouling of some barrels in short order. When I was using the TSX from my 25-06, if I tried to go beyond 20 rounds without a thorough cleaning, accuracy deteriorated very quickly.

My 308 Win had a nice Krieger barrel and of course shot at considerably slower velocity. It didn't share the excess fouling issue.

Guy

 

[hunter24605]

The 140 AB is a top notch performer in a 7-08..It's what I load in my daughter's Savage and it's fantastic in the air, and when it makes contact. I offered up a suggestion to try something else just to see, and she would have none of it, LOL...The 120 TTSX is a stellar performer in my 280. If you're accuracy has suddenly fell off with the mono's, I would look toward fouling as the culprit.

 

[SJB358]

I think your load sounds fine as Mike mentioned. I wouldn't be terribly worried about the tipped version of the TSX opening up at your speeds either. Primers are an indicator, but not the be all end all in my opinion. They do tell a bit of a story, but sloppy firing pin holes and the pins themselves just multiply what you see. I have some guns that will crater with everything and some that look perfect with just about everything. I'd say as long as you are sticking within published speeds and noting the length of your barrel in comparison then you are A-Okay. 2700 with a 140 anything in a 7-08 shouldn't be pushing any limits with Big Game.

 

[truck driver]

Welcome but beware they like to spend your money for you talking you into buying cool stuff. >)

 

[Dougfir]

The 140 AB is a top notch performer in a 7-08..It's what I load in my daughter's Savage and it's fantastic in the air, and when it makes contact. I offered up a suggestion to try something else just to see, and she would have none of it, LOL...The 120 TTSX is a stellar performer in my 280. If you're accuracy has suddenly fell off with the mono's, I would look toward fouling as the culprit.

I really wondered about this too, but I was doing a complete copper cleaning before each session, then firing 3 fouling shots before any groups. Each session was only 10-20 rounds, so it's hard to believe fouling was the issue.

 

[SJB358]

The 140 AB is a top notch performer in a 7-08..It's what I load in my daughter's Savage and it's fantastic in the air, and when it makes contact. I offered up a suggestion to try something else just to see, and she would have none of it, LOL...The 120 TTSX is a stellar performer in my 280. If you're accuracy has suddenly fell off with the mono's, I would look toward fouling as the culprit.

I really wondered about this too, but I was doing a complete copper cleaning before each session, then firing 3 fouling shots before any groups. Each session was only 10-20 rounds, so it's hard to believe fouling was the issue.

Dyna Bore Coat is a great way to fly.. Really reduces fouling and protects the bore a bunch as well. No harm in using it and I guarantee you'll like the way it cleans up.

Some factory barrels are pretty rough from the get go and take some rounds to really settle down. Heck, I have had Bartleins take some shooting to really come around as well.

 

[hunter24605]

I think your load sounds fine as Mike mentioned. I wouldn't be terribly worried about the tipped version of the TSX opening up at your speeds either. Primers are an indicator, but not the be all end all in my opinion. They do tell a bit of a story, but sloppy firing pin holes and the pins themselves just multiply what you see. I have some guns that will crater with everything and some that look perfect with just about everything. I'd say as long as you are sticking within published speeds and noting the length of your barrel in comparison then you are A-Okay. 2700 with a 140 anything in a 7-08 shouldn't be pushing any limits with Big Game.

I have a Model 70 280 that craters primers even with mild loads..Chamfered firing pin holes are notorious for this.

 

[Dougfir]

Mine is a model 70 as well (featherweight). Though, it doesn't usually create craters. I had one other load that would make a slight crater (it was right at max), but most don't.