Node help for the 300 Norma Magnum

[longrangehunter]

Hey guys,

I'd like to find out where is the closest node for the data listed below. I have only just started to shoot this gun and only have 10 rounds down the barrel, but I'd like to find OBT for this gun to test.

Thanks in advance.

Here's what powders I have picked to use w/the 300 Norma Magnum.

RL-33
Retumbo
H1000 (this is what I've been using to break in the barrel)
N170 (this is a limited supply that I only have 4 lbs. of and is discontinued)

Avg. of (5) Norma cases: 106.3 gr. of H2O

Barrel length: 27.25" (odd length I know but that's what it is).
Barrel Twist: 1:8"

Bullet(s):
Berger 230 Hybrid OTM Tactical P/N 30112 (This is what I'm testing now)
Berger 230 Hybrid Target P/N 30430
Berger 215 Hybrid Target P/N 30429

COAL: 3.500" = 2.800" CBTO for the 230 Hybrid OTM.
COAL: 3.700" for the 230 Target bullet.

 

[IdahoCTD]

Why did you go with a 8 twist Kevin?

 

[Dwh7271]

Here's H1000 and the hybrids.

Cartridge          : .300 Norma Mag
Bullet             : .308, 230, Berger Hybr G7 #30428
Useable Case Capaci: 95.186 grain H2O = 6.180 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.500 inch = 88.90 mm
Barrel Length      : 27.3 inch = 692.2 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H1000

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.12% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-01.2   99    85.75   2902    4300   61160  11767    100.0    1.392  ! Near Maximum !
-01.1   99    85.85   2905    4309   61415  11773    100.0    1.389  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0   99    85.96   2908    4319   61670  11779    100.0    1.387  ! Near Maximum !
-00.8   99    86.06   2911    4329   61926  11785    100.0    1.384  ! Near Maximum !
-00.7   99    86.17   2915    4339   62183  11791    100.0    1.382  ! Near Maximum !
-00.6   99    86.27   2918    4348   62441  11797    100.0    1.379  ! Near Maximum !
-00.5  100    86.37   2921    4358   62700  11802    100.0    1.377  ! Near Maximum !
-00.4  100    86.48   2924    4368   62960  11808    100.0    1.374  ! Near Maximum !
-00.2  100    86.58   2928    4378   63221  11814    100.0    1.372  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-00.1  100    86.69   2931    4387   63484  11820    100.0    1.369  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  100    86.79   2934    4397   63747  11826    100.0    1.367  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.1  100    86.89   2938    4407   64011  11832    100.0    1.364  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.2  100    87.00   2941    4417   64277  11838    100.0    1.362  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.4  100    87.10   2944    4426   64543  11843    100.0    1.359  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.5  100    87.21   2947    4436   64810  11849    100.0    1.357  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.6  101    87.31   2951    4446   65079  11855    100.0    1.354  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Cartridge          : .300 Norma Mag
Bullet             : .308, 230, Berger Hybr G7 #30428
Useable Case Capaci: 95.186 grain H2O = 6.180 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.500 inch = 88.90 mm
Barrel Length      : 27.3 inch = 692.2 mm
Powder             : Alliant Reloder-33

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.109% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-01.1   98    94.42   2967    4497   59669  13933     99.7    1.426  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0   98    94.52   2971    4508   59909  13942     99.7    1.423  ! Near Maximum !
-00.9   98    94.63   2975    4519   60150  13950     99.8    1.421  ! Near Maximum !
-00.8   98    94.73   2978    4530   60392  13958     99.8    1.418  ! Near Maximum !
-00.7   98    94.84   2982    4540   60635  13966     99.8    1.415  ! Near Maximum !
-00.5   98    94.94   2985    4551   60880  13974     99.8    1.413  ! Near Maximum !
-00.4   99    95.04   2989    4562   61125  13982     99.8    1.410  ! Near Maximum !
-00.3   99    95.15   2992    4573   61371  13990     99.8    1.408  ! Near Maximum !
-00.2   99    95.25   2996    4584   61618  13997     99.8    1.405  ! Near Maximum !
-00.1   99    95.36   2999    4594   61867  14005     99.8    1.402  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   99    95.46   3003    4605   62116  14012     99.9    1.400  ! Near Maximum !
+00.1   99    95.56   3006    4616   62366  14020     99.9    1.397  ! Near Maximum !
+00.2   99    95.67   3010    4627   62618  14027     99.9    1.395  ! Near Maximum !
+00.3   99    95.77   3014    4638   62870  14034     99.9    1.392  ! Near Maximum !
+00.4   99    95.88   3017    4649   63124  14041     99.9    1.390  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.5  100    95.98   3021    4660   63379  14048     99.9    1.387  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 5% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 5% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     99    95.46   3083    4854   69621  13696    100.0    1.335  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 5% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     99    95.46   2905    4310   54767  14119     98.4    1.475  ! Near Maximum !

Cartridge          : .300 Norma Mag
Bullet             : .308, 230, Berger Hybr G7 #30428
Useable Case Capaci: 95.186 grain H2O = 6.180 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.500 inch = 88.90 mm
Barrel Length      : 27.3 inch = 692.2 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon Retumbo

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.116% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-01.2  101    88.94   2922    4360   59673  12095    100.0    1.418  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0  101    89.04   2925    4369   59914  12101    100.0    1.415  ! Near Maximum !
-00.9  101    89.15   2928    4378   60157  12108    100.0    1.413  ! Near Maximum !
-00.8  101    89.25   2931    4387   60400  12114    100.0    1.410  ! Near Maximum !
-00.7  101    89.36   2934    4397   60645  12121    100.0    1.408  ! Near Maximum !
-00.6  101    89.46   2937    4406   60891  12127    100.0    1.405  ! Near Maximum !
-00.5  102    89.56   2940    4415   61138  12134    100.0    1.403  ! Near Maximum !
-00.3  102    89.67   2943    4424   61386  12140    100.0    1.400  ! Near Maximum !
-00.2  102    89.77   2946    4434   61635  12147    100.0    1.398  ! Near Maximum !
-00.1  102    89.88   2950    4443   61885  12153    100.0    1.395  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0  102    89.98   2953    4452   62136  12160    100.0    1.393  ! Near Maximum !
+00.1  102    90.08   2956    4462   62388  12166    100.0    1.390  ! Near Maximum !
+00.2  102    90.19   2959    4471   62641  12173    100.0    1.388  ! Near Maximum !
+00.3  102    90.29   2962    4480   62895  12179    100.0    1.385  ! Near Maximum !
+00.5  102    90.40   2965    4490   63149  12185    100.0    1.383  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.6  103    90.50   2968    4499   63405  12192    100.0    1.381  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 5% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 5% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    102    89.98   3007    4617   69484  11934    100.0    1.335  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 5% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    102    89.98   2886    4252   55080  12433    100.0    1.460  ! Near Maximum !

Cartridge          : .300 Norma Mag
Bullet             : .308, 230, Berger Hybr G7 #30428
Useable Case Capaci: 95.186 grain H2O = 6.180 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.500 inch = 88.90 mm
Barrel Length      : 27.3 inch = 692.2 mm
Powder             : Vihtavuori N170

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.116% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-01.2  102    88.35   2859    4175   61118  12285     98.9    1.422  ! Near Maximum !
-01.0  102    88.45   2862    4185   61350  12295     99.0    1.419  ! Near Maximum !
-00.9  102    88.56   2866    4194   61584  12306     99.0    1.417  ! Near Maximum !
-00.8  102    88.66   2869    4204   61819  12316     99.0    1.414  ! Near Maximum !
-00.7  102    88.77   2873    4214   62055  12327     99.0    1.412  ! Near Maximum !
-00.6  102    88.87   2876    4224   62291  12337     99.1    1.409  ! Near Maximum !
-00.5  103    88.97   2879    4234   62529  12347     99.1    1.407  ! Near Maximum !
-00.3  103    89.08   2883    4244   62767  12357     99.1    1.404  ! Near Maximum !
-00.2  103    89.18   2886    4254   63006  12367     99.1    1.402  ! Near Maximum !
-00.1  103    89.29   2889    4263   63247  12377     99.2    1.399  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  103    89.39   2893    4273   63488  12387     99.2    1.397  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.1  103    89.49   2896    4283   63730  12397     99.2    1.394  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.2  103    89.60   2899    4293   63974  12406     99.2    1.392  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.3  103    89.70   2903    4303   64218  12416     99.3    1.389  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.5  103    89.81   2906    4313   64463  12426     99.3    1.387  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.6  104    89.91   2909    4323   64709  12435     99.3    1.384  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 5% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 5% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    103    89.39   2959    4473   69364  12251    100.0    1.342  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 5% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    103    89.39   2814    4044   57660  12366     97.3    1.459  ! Near Maximum !

I used default burns on all of them. If you can get a charge weight and an average of 5-10 over the chrono we can fine tune it in for you a little. (lets us adjust the burn a hair if needed)

 

[Dwh7271]

Kevin;
Here are what I came up with for nodes and barrel times.
Node 3 is 1.158
Node 4 is 1.246
Node 5 is 1.393
Node 6 is 1.482


Using the hybrid on these here's some guesses and without a fairly valid burn it is a guess but may be close to what you're hunting for.
With the N170 you can't get to Node 5 without going into the danger zone a hair (around 89.5 gr)
RL33 is close to the max at 95.7 gr for 1.394
H1000 is around 85.7 gr for 1.392 (can't get to node 4)
Retumbo is right at 90 gr for 1.392

If you'd like, post some speeds with charge weight and we'll tune it in a hair.

 

[longrangehunter]

So before I got a chance to read your reply I just put together five rounds after checking for OAL to the lands using the 230 Hybrid Target bullet and just went with the same powder charge as the Berger 230 Hybrid OTM Tactical I used to break in the barrel.

So I picked this out of thin air for a starting charge wt.

83.5 H1000 F215M Norma Brass@ 2.8470" CBTO = .010" off the lands. I did not pull out my chronograph simply because I had a feeling these were light and just wanted to see a group. The photo is the first 5 round group I've shot through the gun after I put 10 rounds down the barrel plus the 2 from GAP. I shot 3 round the other day with the 230 OTM's and was not cleaned before this group at 100 Yards off a bench.

Note: these targets are hard to see the center for me even on 15x. It seemed to produce a better group as I shot as seen from the lower left corner of the group itself.

I noticed that for a 27.5" bbl. his pdf file page showed a node 5 @ 1.4054 which maybe this is close too? If I remember correctly I thought he wanted to use the full length of the barrel (including the shank)? if that's the case then the OAL Barrel length would be more like 28.5" total length?

Thank you for the QL and I'll get my chronograph out tomorrow but I hear we are suppose to have very high winds.... 60+ mph! Not good for the fires around here and blowing dust over in Washington. Thank God I don't live over near that stuff, but I'll have to wait and see?

 

[longrangehunter]

Why did you go with a 8 twist Kevin?

That was the twist rate for the 3 barrels that just came in when I bought mine, so I bought it. A while back I wrote an article about testing a fast twist and stabilization at extreme ranges in transonic zone. So this is just an attempt to test that theory and put it to practice since the 1:10 338 didn't really shine so well for me at those extreme ranges. The RPM is no different then any other 1:8" going at the same speed. My 6.5/300 does it all the time with no issues so I don't think this will either.

 

[IdahoCTD]

I shoot the same targets but with a solid black center. It's easier to see IMO. It looks like the gun wants to shoot. BTW the barrel length includes the shank. So if the barrel is removed you measure the whole length of the barrel.

You will never get to 95.7grs of R-33. I shoot 92grs in my improved version and it holds about 5-6 grains more than the standard. I'd bet 90grs of Retumbo is WARM too.

 

[longrangehunter]

I couldn't see that happening either since that was the almost as much RL-33 that I used in the 338 LM, (I used 94.5/300 SMK or the Scenar and the most I stuffed in it was 97.5 gr.), but in that cartridge I never did try Retumbo.

I'll have to black out the center with a sharpie, that should help so thanks for the tip!

So I used the same barrel length as the factory Sako TRG, 27.25". I know the barrel blank was only 29", so maybe I'm wrong about the OAL of the barrel being 28.5"? I was thinking the shank was 1.25" of threads, I'll have to look into the action and measure the barrel to see what it actually is?

Thanks

 

[Dwh7271]

Here's what you shot.
Barrel time is around 1.46 which is fairly close to Node 6, certainly within the 2% or so. It's pretty close actually.
2% either side encompasses from 1.43 to 1.489.

Cartridge          : .300 Norma Mag
Bullet             : .308, 230, Berger Hybr G7 #30428
Useable Case Capaci: 95.950 grain H2O = 6.230 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.540 inch = 89.92 mm
Barrel Length      : 27.3 inch = 692.2 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H1000

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 0.124% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-01.2   94    82.46   2785    3963   52844  11617    100.0    1.487
-01.1   94    82.56   2789    3972   53058  11623    100.0    1.484
-01.0   94    82.67   2792    3981   53275  11630    100.0    1.481
-00.9   95    82.77   2795    3991   53490  11636    100.0    1.478
-00.7   95    82.88   2799    4000   53708  11643    100.0    1.476
-00.6   95    82.98   2802    4010   53927  11649    100.0    1.473
-00.5   95    83.08   2805    4019   54147  11656    100.0    1.470
-00.4   95    83.19   2809    4029   54367  11662    100.0    1.468  ! Near Maximum !
-00.2   95    83.29   2812    4038   54588  11669    100.0    1.465  ! Near Maximum !
-00.1   95    83.40   2815    4048   54811  11675    100.0    1.462  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   95  [color=#BF0000]  83.50   2819    4057   55034  11681    100.0    1.460[/color]  ! Near Maximum !
+00.1   96    83.60   2822    4067   55259  11688    100.0    1.457  ! Near Maximum !
+00.2   96    83.71   2825    4076   55483  11694    100.0    1.454  ! Near Maximum !
+00.4   96    83.81   2828    4086   55710  11701    100.0    1.452  ! Near Maximum !
+00.5   96    83.92   2832    4095   55937  11707    100.0    1.449  ! Near Maximum !
+00.6   96    84.02   2835    4105   56166  11713    100.0    1.446  ! Near Maximum !

Results caused by ± 5% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 5% relative to nominal value:
+Ba     95    83.50   2878    4229   60940  11437    100.0    1.401  ! Near Maximum !
Data for burning rate decreased by 5% relative to nominal value:
-Ba     95    83.50   2745    3848   49455  11925     99.7    1.526

 

[Dwh7271]

By the way if the barrel is 28.5 here are the nodes
Node 4 1.302
Node 5 1.456
Node 6 1.548
Node 7 1.702

 

[longrangehunter]

So the barrel is actually 27.125"-27.00"" in total length from what I could measure from the small hole in the action in case of a cartridge rupture. Looks closer to 27.00". So from what I wrote down those numbers should be:

4) 1.2350
5) 1.3801
6) 1.4682
7) 1.6127

We have very little sun today but I'm going to see what kind of speeds I am getting when I get the chance mid morning.... if I can get out there. Are those bbl. times correct? I took them from the long families article and his pdf file for the various barrel lengths.

Thanks Dewey

PS: I'll test that load and see what speed I get compared to what QL says. I figured it had to be near a node to group so well? I'll also test for the next node at 1.3801 w/ H1000.

 

[Dwh7271]

Yes, those seem to be right.
Let me know how your speed works out.
I agree with Nathan, that rifle looks like it going to shoot well.

 

[IdahoCTD]

Here is what my improved did with 4 shots using 92grs of R-33 and a 230 Berger Target bullet at 3.603" OAL in a 30" barrel at 3045fps. This is with 423 Dakota brass and a water volume of 108.7grs. Norma brass holds 110.3. That group is .166".

 

[Dwh7271]

Wow. Nice.
Great shooting.

 

[longrangehunter]

Nice,

I'm setting up the Oehler right now, but we have little sun light due to all the smoke in the air. My plan is to test the 1.3801 B time using 86.1-86.2 grains H1000 and see what speeds the 83.5 was showing.

 

[IdahoCTD]

Half the time it seems like I don't shoot that well and the rifle makes it happen. It's probably the most accurate .30 caliber magnum I've built. It's has shot sub 1" at 300yds the few times I've shot it there but 3 shots in the .1XX's at 100yds is the norm and I've shot a few 5 shot groups in the .1's. If my eyes weren't starting to go to crap I think it would probably do a screamer 3 shot group (that's in the .0XX's). The only other large caliber rifle I've had this consistently accurate was a .308Win on a Hart barrel that would shoot 125gr Sierra's in the .0's and .1's day in and day out. My .338 Edge is close but not quite as accurate. It's more of a .2's gun even though I've shot several groups in the .1's with it.

 

[longrangehunter]

86.0 H1000 2997 fps @ 20" from the muzzle! Seems really fast and had a slight heavy bolt lift. Primer look fine other then a slight scrape on the case head. Maybe too warm for that node, I only shot one at that level. What do you think? That's a lot faster then any thing in the Berger manual with that bullet.

I did get some data from Berger w/the 215 Hybrid 26" bbl:

H1000 83.5 87.7 2932 fps 98% case fill
RL-33 92.5 97.3 3007 fps 98% case fill
Retumbo 87.0 91.7 2974 fps 101% case fill
VV N570 88.0 92.8 3018 fps 98% case fill

I measured the case heads and they were all the same @ .5860"-.5865" even the last load at 86.0 going 2997 fps @ 20'.

 

[longrangehunter]

I shot one more at 2977 fps @ 20'.... bullet landed no where near the other, don't like it! I'll test the 83.5 for speed.... besides I've never been a speed freak unless you're talking about my car!

 

[longrangehunter]

So I put together the remaining pieces of brass I had prepped and center punched the same hole from yesterday! Better yet the group was smaller since I could actually see the black dot I marked in. The two bullets holes above are the 86.0 H1000 F215M 230 Hybrid Target.... waste of time IMO as soon as I saw it!

I used a new piece of cardboard since the backer board had a huge hole. As you can see it shoots rather well with that bullet. Anything that heavy, 230 grains going 2900 fps is more then enough to pass the muster since my last load from the 338 Lapua was only going 2600 fps with a 300 grain bullet.

I just love it when I can put ten rounds through a barrel, and take another ten to find a load! Damn, am I good or what..... I know that sounds cocky, but hey, it is what it is I suppose. I'd rather be lucky anyways, but I'll still need to see what it will do long range before I sound like I'm a smart cookie.

I'm not into testing every bullet under the sun with every powder known to man when I find something that seems to work so well from the beginning, but I will need to test the Barnes 200 gr. LRX's I have on hand for a hunting bullet.

83.5 H1000 F215M Norma Brass @ 2.8460" CBTO = 3.600" COAL
FPS from the Oehler 35P
2898-01-2909
2870-02-2880
2867-03-2878

ES-31
SD-17
Avg. of 3- 2889 @ 20' from the muzzle

the 86.0 H1000 F215M @ 2.8460" CBTO

2986-01-2997
2967-02-2977

Lamo for ES, and the SD IMO and the target shows that to be true.

 

[IdahoCTD]

The 300 Norma case wants to shoot it seems. I would stay at 2900fps and shoot some bullets into wet phone books or water jugs and see what happens. You may not need those Barnes bullets.

How much neck tension are you running? I would try to only run .002-.003" to see if you can get your ES down a bit from 35fps.