pics of groups,,help

[romex2121]

these are the groups from the range on sat. all loads were 180gr nosler particians over 55gns of IMR 4350 first target was .030 off lands(3.865 from ogive} second was .025 off lands(3.870 from ogive) third was 3.875from ogive) cases were win. and primers were CCI BR-2
the first shot with the blue circle was from a cold clean barrel,, what can i do to tighten these groups??????? this is pretty much the norm in all my reloads H4350,IMR4350,IMR4064,,165GR bullets,,180GR bullets,,ETC
TARGET ONE WAS THE BEST AT 1.581"

 

[FOTIS]

I suspect you're firing an 30-06?
Make model free floated or not? More info please

 

[romex2121]

SORRY yes you are correct,, rem 700 bdl in 30/06 not free floated wood stock all factory if i remember right the barrel is about 20'',, i bought this rifle in a pawn shop years ago its a good shooter with factory wins in a 150gr sp ,, it can group them inside of a nikle(no kidding) but i sure cant do that with my reloads what im i doing wrong???? it does seem to me that the closer i get to the lands the worse the groups are.....

 

[DrMike]

What is the twist rate? Since the rifle groups factory 150s quite well, it is possible that it is not going to like 180s. Perhaps you need to look at 165s in order to get a little more mass for elk. You may find that they work better than the 180s.

On the other hand, if you have decent velocity with the 180s, the groups are minute of elk and capable of taking game to 300 yards.

 

[JD338]

romex2121

A few more questions for you so we can help figure out a solution for you.
Have you checked the scope rings and bases to make sure everything is tight? Action screws?
Fouling can also be a factor. What are you using to clean the barrel? Maybe something like Sweets 7.62 is needed to get all the copper fouling out.
What are you using for a rest? Sandbags?

JD338

 

[Guest]

You say all your handloads are doing this? With 165 and 180gr? How long are you waiting in between shots for the barrel to cool? No offense, but it really sounds like there's an issue with the technique you're using at the load bench. Briefly walk us through your process in terms of brass prep and load building. Are you trimming to a consistent length? Are you using all the same brand and lot of brass? More information will help diagnosis.

Also, what kind of scope do you have on it? That double-double grouping is something I've seen and heard of happening when a scope is letting go. Of course, if the gun shoots factory stuff straight, the scope going out is a long shot, but it could be the issue. If you have a second scope, maybe it's time to swap and compare.

 

[OU812]

I realize you changed your COL between all 3 targets but as JD338 said I would look at the mounts and scope first. To me targets 2&3 look to have 2 different POI rather than a scatted group, maybe parallax? These are easy things to check and can eliminate lots of wasted time and bullets.

Might also shoot some of the factory 150 just to besure it still shoots like you have witnessed in the past.

 

[romex2121]

ok here we go :lol: i have a 1:10 twist rate,,i cleaned the rifle for about an hour prior to shooting used hoppes to remove fouling and sweets to remove copper took awhile to get it clean :roll: brass is from once fired from my gun thet ive been saving over the years all wins.,, prep consist of full leangth sizing trimming all to same measurement 2.487 remove lube and load ,no crimp, very anal about wieghts in powder.. rest is a lead slead with no wieght and it seems to be heavey enough,, this might be where im messing up,,,time between shots is fire ,reload and fire for the 4 shot groups then wait about 5min to cool in the mean time i swab with hoppes and run patch to dry,, then fire reload and fire. i havent tried the factory ammo for awhile so i really couldnt say if it still prints the way it used to,,, scope is a Leoupold VX-ll 3x9x40 duplex recepticle.. i do have another scope on my muzzel loader i think its a simmons ... i really dont understand whats going on but i am waisting alot of powder and bullets and getting very frustrated .. the rem stock does have the pressure points and i am thinking of having it bedded in hopes of shooting better

 

[OU812]

between shots is fire ,reload and fire for the 4 shot groups then wait about 5min to cool in the mean time i swab with hoppes and run patch to dry,, then fire reload and fire.

I would not clean between groups once you fire your 2-3 fouling rounds. Most guns take 2-3 rounds to dirty the barrel before they will settle in to their POI. Most guns shoot more accurate with a dirty barrel, well until a given round count and those vary from gun to gun and caliber. Give not cleaning between rounds a try.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

You said the barrel is not freefloated.

If you gun is all factory you should go two things:
:!: :!: :!: Free float the barrel :!: :!: :!:
And adjust the trigger.

I wouldn't expect any better results until you have freefloated the barrel.

 

[romex2121]

I would not clean between groups once you fire your 2-3 fouling rounds. Most guns take 2-3 rounds to dirty the barrel before they will settle in to their POI. Most guns shoot more accurate with a dirty barrel, well until a given round count and those vary from gun to gun and caliber. Give not cleaning between rounds a try.[/quote],,

i can see where your coming from but 9 times outa 10 that first shot at game would be from a clean barrel,, thats the way i see it anyway,,

 

[romex2121]

how long do you guys wait inbetween shots when testing loads??????

 

[JD338]

how long do you guys wait inbetween shots when testing loads??????

Depends on the temperature you are shooting in.
I would wait 5 min between shots.

Agree with not cleaning between shots. What do you use for cleaning?

JD338

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

I shoot some of my best groups with no wait.
With thin, light weight barrels it's important to let them cool, but with a medium or heavier barrel it's not as important.

I shoot some of my best groups with no wait between shots.

The Bench shooters I know will usually shoot 2-3 shots before they settle down and shoot their groups.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

My first shot at game is never out of a clean barrel. I always foul it before heading into the field.

 

[JD338]

My first shot at game is never out of a clean barrel. I always foul it before heading into the field.

+1
Same here.

JD338

 

[OU812]

My first shot at game is never out of a clean barrel. I always foul it before heading into the field.

Yep same here. Before any hunting season I go out to the range and fire 2-3 shots to foul the barrel and won't clean the barrel till either I've taken my animal or season ends.

 

[Big Squeeze]

Before you get into any free-floating or modifying anything, try this technique first.

Determine first if you want range loadings or hunting loads.

For range loadings (single shot loadings)!!.....Seat the bullet touching the lands with 3 to 5 reloads using the same powder, charge, bullet and primer. Then back off 10/1000ths using the same charge and bullet, then back off another 10/1000ths, then back off 10/1000ths more followed by another 10/1000ths. Somewhere within that 40/1000ths spread from the lands, will be be your sweet spot for that particular charge, primer and bullet you`re using. Use that same formula for all changes in powder, the charges (even a 1/2 grain variance), primer and bullets.


For huntings loads (shells loaded in the magazine).....Start with the max allowable length your magazine will allow, while still enabling you to cycle the bolt effectively. And then follow the same proceedure as above backing off 10/1000ths at a time. Your goal is to find your rifle`s sweet spot for COAL for each load you do whether it be for range loads or hunting loads.

Also as a good idea, keep some factory ammo handy or other reloads to foul the barrel with a shot or two before your group experimenting begins. Between your shots (not between groups), allow the bore to cool down 2-3 minutes. In-between groups about 5 minutes. Clean the bore in between groups and begin each new group with a fouling shot.

What I also do, is get some small zip lock baggies and label them in order to seperate the loadings from one another. On the label, write all the info.

 

[Guest]

Same here on fouling a bore prior to the hunt.

As for cooling time between shots, it depends, as JD said, on temperature. For instance, I'm going to try to head out to the range this week one evening since I'm bacheloring all week. The ambient temp will be in the 85-90deg range when I arrive, I'm almost sure. I will shoot one, or two, or maybe three shots from the first rifle, which will likely be an 8x57 or my 270Wby. I'll grab the barrel in between shots, and if I can't hold comfortably for a count of five seconds, the bolt will be open and the gun in the rack until it cools to ambient temp. Sometimes that seems to take days! I'll have a handful of rifles, at least five and possibly six, plus a 22LR as an extra to plink with during extended cooling times. I'll also have a bottle of rubbing alcohol and a roll of blue shop towels present for when my patience is thin waiting to shoot the bigger stuff. I just soak a shop towel, and wipe down the barrel. The evaporation of the alcohol cools the barrel much more quickly. It's the only way alcohol and shooting mix!

Anyway, I generally shoot two or three shots, and let the gun cool, while I shoot two or three from everything else, and maybe 30 (2 magazines) from the 22LR. Seems to work well enough for my use.

If this were my rifle, I'd do the following, in this order:

• 1. Re-shoot the factory loads to verify they still shoot well
  2. Check the scope mounts and rings
  3. Clean the bore very thoroughly with either BoreTech Eliminator or Break-Free foaming bore cleaner
  4. Check all handloads for consistent COL, and maybe pull four or five to check the brass length and charge weight
  5. Consider buying some new brass to get all the same lot (just a thought, different lots of brass could have different internal capacities and cause problems)
  6. Consider trying another scope
  7. Consider having someone else shoot the rifle
  8. Consider having someone else load rounds for the rifle and shoot them for you

Doing these things would eliminate the variables in the equation to the extent you can. Beyond that, maybe floating the barrel and re-working the load would do it. You could always Accu-Tape it to find out.

 

[wildman]

Romex I kinda got a feeling you have a stock that's giving you some grief.Have you tried running a piece of paper between the barrel and stock to see if you have any tight spots other than the pressure point out on the end of the stock ?