pics of groups,,help

[HeathSexton]

I always hunt with a dirty barrel, cleaning is for after the season and the rifle is to be put up for a bit. My AR15 doesn't get cleaned until there is 500-600 rounds down the tube, that is when accuracy falls off.


I would try to partial full length size rather than full resizing if that is what you are doing.


I would also float that baby out, my Rem .260 sucked until I free floated the barrel.

 

[cloverleaf]

If you want to try floating the barrel, maybe try a couple layers of electrical tape in the barrel channel rather than making a permanent adjustment. Is there a problem W/ the bedding perhaps?? CL

 

[hardpan]

I know that a lot of people with only shoot a fouled barrel. I personally shoot a clean barrel even in the field. I clean it after the session... I have several friends that shoot long distance benchrest, and most of them will start with a clean barrel. Their's, and my, fouling shot is usually in the middle of the group. I would be interested what you guys have found out in grouping from the first shot being cold. BTW, most of the guys that the ranges that I shoot at are starting to clean theirs as well. Last, it often is warm with I am at the range. 70 degrees is a blessing. So that I need my first shot to count. Otherwise a 3 shot group from my .300 WBY may take me 45 minutes instead of 30 minutes.

I do make certain that the barrel is cold for a lot of reasons. The largest are that heat expands metal, and that volume is proportional to heat. *of course with the round going off, the difference is likely to be minimal. The other is that no barrel or rifle manufacturer will guarantee sub MOA groups from a hot barrel.

thanks,
Hardpan

 

[matts318]

I have to use fouling shots before I start grouping, I have taken proven hand loads out and they just dont group. I hate doin it but I put at least 4 down the barrel, sometimes I still get a random flier if I only shoot 3 fouling shots. When its 105 down here I end up shooting with a warm barrel or it would take an hour and a half to get a 5 shot group, or longer with my WSM's, I at least make sure I can hold on to the barrel though.

For hunting I site in with whatever load Im going to use, clean it, then put 5 rounds threw the barrel and dont clean for the season.[/url]

 

[hardpan]

On my texas ranch, I would take 1.5 hours for a 4 shot group in the summer. I am interested in why the gun shoots the same hot and cold. definitely not the case with any mag rifle that i ever owned. Once it is hot, grouping is out of the question. I have a 300 wby mag, 26 inch barrel, blued and light. Hot, it shoots around 8 inches different than cold. I also have 2 rifles that are carbon fiber. they dissipate heat very fast, but still grouping on a hot barrel is pretty hard.
hardpan

 

[romex2121]

thanks guys,, lots of advise :grin: :wink: , im gonna try to get back to the range today and try some factory ammo to see if its any better.. i have suspected the stock for awhile,, in fact i took a buisness card ,tore it into 4 pieces and placed it just forward of the recoil lug,, im gonna pull the spacer out and see if that makes a difference,,,,, im wanting hunting loads and im sure target 1 and 2 could take game without a problem but i really belive they can tighten up some also.. guys i really want to THANK YOU for all of your help and comments on this issue,,,,,,,,,

 

[Colin]

First off, I think I would try the groups without cleaning in between.

This may be a long shot....

I had a similar problem with my .243....I tried everything to get this thing to group. Out of frustration I finally took the rifle apart and went over it very well. I finally spotted something that I hadn't noticed before. In the barrel channel in the stock was a ridge. (The channel was not cut properly). I finally used a Dremmel and knocked down that ridge and bolted her all back together. That was the problem and the groups tightened right up.

This ridge was not easily noticed, so I had to look really hard before I noticed it.

 

[romex2121]

colin,, the last time i had it apart i did notice the ridge in which you talked about,,, i thought it was just the way it was supposed to be :roll: im gonna take a cloer look at it and i may start sanding today,,, im really nervous about removing something i cant put back :lol: :lol:

 

[Guest]

If you want to sand that ridge, go to Lowe's or Home Depot (or your local hardware store if you still have one) and get an oak dowel rod about the diameter of our barrel. Wrap and tape some sandpaper around the dowel, and gently go at the barrel channel. Don't forget to reseal the wood where you sanded it, though.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Dubyam +1
Colin +2......seen it a dozen times.

 

[Colin]

I figured, the barrel was "jumping" back and forth over that ridge. Only a few thousanths of an inch, but that makes a big difference. That rifle went from shooting 2-3 inch groups to under an inch after removing that ridge. I figured, worst case, I'd have to bed the rifle and that is not too expensive. Or even buy a new stock. I still have a little work to do with that rifle, as it struggles to shoot the 95gr Ballistic Tip as well as it shoots the 70gr one. It's mainly a coyote riflfe so 3/4 inch groups with the 70gr is not too bad, but 1.5 inch groups with the 95gr is not good enough for me.

Try it, you may be happy with the results.

 

[romex2121]

ive taken the rifle apart,, and it does have the ridge Colin was describing ive sanded it down in hopes of making some improvement :wink: also while looking at the undernieth of the barrel i noticed some rub marks in the bluing (rubed to the metal)about an inch from the end of the stock im assuming this is the remington pressure point ,, also the plastic end that remington uses is showing some melting on the end where the barrel touches ??????? if i put the paper shims back in behind the recoil lug the barrel isint in contact with the plastic end,,,,,,,,thus free floating correct ????

 

[Colin]

As long as the barrel does not touch stock, it is free floated. However, (not that I have much knowledge about this) I don't know if paper shims are the best route. Can you sand down that pressure point and do away with the shims? If so, I'd probably do that. Float the barrel yourself. Mine also had rubs on the blueing where the reidge was touching it. I have "modified" a few stocks and every rifle I have done that to ends up shooting better.

I just worry about the paper shims collecting moisture, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Guest]

If you're worried about shimming, go to the nearest hobby shop (model trains, etc) and buy some styrene sheets. You can get them in various sizes, thicknesses, etc, and since they're plastic, they're impervious to moisture. I've used them to glass in pressure points at the forend tip. Works great to glass in a layer of three strips of the correct thickness, and then use a triangle file to remove the middle portion and create the two point contact cradle like the Weatherby factory uses. I believe many gunsmiths recommend two point contact (at about 430 & 730, respectively).

Anyway, you could do that, or you could just sand out the pressure point. Try it first with the shims (even paper) and be sure it shoots better, then sand away. Don't forget to reseal it. Really, don't forget that.

 

[Idaho_Elk_Huntr]

also the plastic end that remington uses is showing some melting on the end where the barrel touches ???????

What is happening to cause this??

 

[romex2121]

What is happening to cause this??[/quote]

only thing i can think is that in the past i ran about forty shots thru it with no cooling down :roll: plus the barrel sets right on the plastic end

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

I'd follow Dubyam advice.
I bet it will go sub moa after you float the barrel.

 

[khh]

I'm late on this I know but one thing I didn't see when I glanced through the posts was anyone mention bullet run out. If it was sorry I missed it. As long as the gun is sound ,no bedding , scope , or other issue's . I would look there . I was really surprised when I started checking mine. Now I check every piece and sort them, .003 and under go in one end of the box with the straightest for hunting. .003-.005 go in the middle and over .005 go for fouling the barrel or off hand practice and are in the opposite end from the good ones. I don't get to many fliers anymore just some from operator error. Bullet run out has made the biggest difference in my grouping. bullet seating depth is kinda how I fine tune after I'm getting good groups.

I spent a lot of time trying to get each rifle to itty bitty groups it was fun but I pulled out a lot of hair doing it. Now I do things different.

If I have a gun that shoots good with one load , be it factory or handload I usually wont mess with the gun. I look elsewhere for the problem.

I never put much stock in the first shot or two after I've cleaned my gun.

For some reason I personally shoot better overall off sand bags then I do with a lead sled.

To really test a rifle I need a really really sturdy bench and rest. And a really really clam day those are few and far between. good hunting kh

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Here's a good guide to run-out

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rif ... n-out.html