Powder for 280 AI with Swift Scirocco

[Nimrod84]

Is anyone running their 280 Ackley with the 150 grain Scirocco? If you are, please let me know what powder and charge weight you are using.

I'm having trouble finding load data I trust for the combo. Hodgdon lists data, and I've talked to Swift which referred me back to Hodgdon... However, I really don't have confidence in Hodgdon's 280 Rem and Ackley data. I can explain my lack of confidence via PM if needed...

The question remains, what (if anything) is being used to run the Scirocco in the 280 AI in the real world?

Any insight, wisdom, etc. is appreciated and thank you.

If you made it this far: rifle is a Kimber 84L (24" barrel) and shoots better than I can with 58.6 grains of H4831sc, 160 grain AccuBond, CCI 200 primer and Hornady cases with either 75 or 77 grains of H2O capacity (I can't recall which it is). It is showing about 2700 fps, and accuracy is such that there is no pressure to chase speed with the AccuBond.

 

[noslerpartition]

What do you expect from.the scirocco that the AB does not have?
Sorry - no input to ypur question.

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[drakehammer]

What do you expect from.the scirocco that the AB does not have?
Sorry - no input to ypur question.

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Scirocco[emoji768] II, with the Signature Black Tip[emoji769], is a superbly accurate hunting bullet designed for long-range efficiency. It carries velocity and energy better than any of its competitors. Its sleek design and high ballistic coefficient produces the flattest trajectory in downrange hunting, making it a perfect match for long-range cartridges. The Scirocco[emoji768] II produces positive expansion at minimal velocities as well as controlled expansion and high weight retention at close range. No other tipped bullet offers the terminal range of Scirocco[emoji769] II.

Best answer I could come up with...but mostly its the cool black tip.
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[noslerpartition]

Ok.

Apart from marketing ;-)

The AB is a well-designed bullet and bc isn't that bad.

At what distances do you plan to shoot?

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[Nimrod84]

Good questions!

Bullet wise I expect absolutely nothing to be gained, and I mean that. I started with the AccuBond, it is my first choice! I personally like to have a min. of two different loads for a rifle in-case a particular component (powder / bullet) becomes hard to get, load goes wonky (lets me isolate if it is the gun or load) and it is also fun to experiment and try different things.

Usually I'm shooting game in the 150-350 yard range. Michigan tends to be 250yds and under. I do practice out to 500 yds though, just for the fun of it. Wind is my main problem.

The AccuBond at 2700 fps is just too good to mess with especially with a temp stable powder. In Michigan I might hunt in temps from 0F to 65F, and I am hoping to have a good "speed load" (2900 fps min) for out west. My father lives in southern Utah and I do get out west periodically to hunt; but temps tend to be in the higher ranges out there than Michigan.

I would like to consider using RL-22 with the Scirocco as I'm using that with the 160 AccuBond in a 280 Rem at 2800+ fps; the 280 Rem took an Elk in NM last year. But there is no data with any of the Alliant or Ramshot powders with the Scirocco in the 280 AI; so I'm still spinning my wheels trying to decide on how to proceed.

Just FYI - the 280 Rem's secondary load is a 162 grain SST with IMR 4831.
30-06 is using H4831sc with 180 grain Partitions and a lighter 165 grain Core-Loct with IMR 4451.

 

[284allways]

I use the following
Norma brass
Win LRP
RL22
with 150 gr Scirocco
I have a Hart 26" bbl and get 1/2" and 3,080 fps

 

[Nimrod84]

Thank you 284allways. Do you mind letting me know how much RL22 you are using? If you don't want to post the weight on the open forum, you could private message me.

I'm thinking I can run somewhere around 58.5-60 grains of RL-22 with the Scirocco; based on prorating the Swift data for the 280 Rem (on the back of an envelope i.e. off the cuff and unverified). I don't have the H20 capacity of their Remington brass to do a more solid calculation... The Swift manual #2 shows 57 grains of RL-22 as max in the 280 Rem and the 150 grain Scirocco and this seems pretty conservative...

Thank you again.

Edited to add: Drakehammer, if I was really going off of the tip color I would be shooting E-Tips. Dark (olive drab) green and dark blue are my favorite colors, black is okay but the photo's I keep seeing of the E-Tips make me a little weak in the knees.

The Scirocco's were actually purchased for another 280 Rem I own that when kitted out weighs over 10 lbs and it is setup for 500+ yard shooting. It has a preference for 150 grain bullets and I purchased the Scirocco's around the time that the ABLR were just being introduced. Figured I would stick with a tested bonded bullet that I could actually find in stock. That 280 Rem's throat is too short to comfortably use the Scirocco's, so they have been sitting on a shelf for a while. I figure they might make a good match with the 280 AI; and if they do, I will need to figure out how to turn that black tip into OD green or learn to live with black tips.

 

[Dwh7271]

Nosler Brass
60.5 RL22
150 Scirocco II
CCI BR2
3k roughly in 24"
Start lower and work up....

 

[drakehammer]

Thank you 284allways. Do you mind letting me know how much RL22 you are using? If you don't want to post the weight on the open forum, you could private message me.

I'm thinking I can run somewhere around 58.5-60 grains of RL-22 with the Scirocco; based on prorating the Swift data for the 280 Rem (on the back of an envelope i.e. off the cuff and unverified). I don't have the H20 capacity of their Remington brass to do a more solid calculation... The Swift manual #2 shows 57 grains of RL-22 as max in the 280 Rem and the 150 grain Scirocco and this seems pretty conservative...

Thank you again.

Edited to add: Drakehammer, if I was really going off of the tip color I would be shooting E-Tips. Dark (olive drab) green and dark blue are my favorite colors, black is okay but the photo's I keep seeing of the E-Tips make me a little weak in the knees.

The Scirocco's were actually purchased for another 280 Rem I own that when kitted out weighs over 10 lbs and it is setup for 500+ yard shooting. It has a preference for 150 grain bullets and I purchased the Scirocco's around the time that the ABLR were just being introduced. Figured I would stick with a tested bonded bullet that I could actually find in stock. That 280 Rem's throat is too short to comfortably use the Scirocco's, so they have been sitting on a shelf for a while. I figure they might make a good match with the 280 AI; and if they do, I will need to figure out how to turn that black tip into OD green or learn to live with black tips.

Sciroccos like jump pretty much invariably. 0.030” min., 0.120” common. Never heard of throat too short with bullets that jump.


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[284allways]

PM sent

 

[Nimrod84]

Drakehammer,
Max COAL on that 280 Rem runs around 3.2", when I seat the Sciroccos deep to get the jump needed I'm eating up way too much powder capacity (velocity) to justify an expensive bullet. Forgot about the limited COAL and purchased the Sciroccos on an impulse, got them on sale. Please forgive the confusion for me not wording things correctly.

I think the Nosler manual #7 (might be #8) has the following to say: "The industry maximum overall cartridge length (O.A.L.) was established to assure proper feeding in modern sporting firearms. For the 280 Rem, this length has been established at 3.330". However, we have found a variation in the throat of most rifles that require the bullets to be seated deep than this. The reloader is cautioned to always check for bullet to throat clearance with their reloads."

Factory 150 grain Remington Core-Lokts work great in the rifle and were cheap 10+ years ago, Federal 160 grain Trophy Bonded Tips when available worked well out to about 250-300 yards, but most other factory ammo is poor. Took some game around 400 yards with the rifle and the 150 grain Core-Lokts (bullets had poor expansion). I never got a good long range load developed for it though and I believe it has a 24" Douglas 1/10 twist barrel. Getting a decent 500+ yard load for that 280 Rem was my 2018 reloading goal, at least before the 280 AI came home with me... 2019 or 2020 will probably end up resolving the question of what to do with the overweight 280 Rem that has a "short throat"...

284allways,
Thank you very much and I replied.

 

[drakehammer]

Drakehammer,
Max COAL on that 280 Rem runs around 3.2", when I seat the Sciroccos deep to get the jump needed I'm eating up way too much powder capacity (velocity) to justify an expensive bullet. Forgot about the limited COAL and purchased the Sciroccos on an impulse, got them on sale. Please forgive the confusion for me not wording things correctly.

I think the Nosler manual #7 (might be #8) has the following to say: "The industry maximum overall cartridge length (O.A.L.) was established to assure proper feeding in modern sporting firearms. For the 280 Rem, this length has been established at 3.330". However, we have found a variation in the throat of most rifles that require the bullets to be seated deep than this. The reloader is cautioned to always check for bullet to throat clearance with their reloads."

Factory 150 grain Remington Core-Lokts work great in the rifle and were cheap 10+ years ago, Federal 160 grain Trophy Bonded Tips when available worked well out to about 250-300 yards, but most other factory ammo is poor. Took some game around 400 yards with the rifle and the 150 grain Core-Lokts (bullets had poor expansion). I never got a good long range load developed for it though and I believe it has a 24" Douglas 1/10 twist barrel. Getting a decent 500+ yard load for that 280 Rem was my 2018 reloading goal, at least before the 280 AI came home with me... 2019 or 2020 will probably end up resolving the question of what to do with the overweight 280 Rem that has a "short throat"...

284allways,
Thank you very much and I replied.

I would definitely find a good gunsmith to lengthen that throat to your liking. It will be cheap and change your world. I can’t imagine you getting much done with any heavies without throat alteration.


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[drakehammer]

Swift does seemingly keep the charges a little on the low side for the Scirocco, with good reason. Because of its long bearing surface and its thicker gilding metal jacket, it builds pressure quicker than Accubonds and similar bullets of the same weight. I spent a good while on the phone with Bill at Swift and he set me on the right path with the Scirocco. That being said, I would really give RL-26 a look..It worked great in my non-AI 280, and a bunch of other cartridges.

Its not a gilded metal jacket. Its a solid copper jacket which tends to copper foul more readily than gilded metal jackets, such as those used for ballistic tips and accubonds.


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[Nimrod84]

Hunter24605,
RL-26 might be in the future along with RL-23; I would need to get QL or otherwise have some means of verifying things before going that route with the 280 AI. The AI's have a reputation of hiding pressure until they get into the 67,000-70,000 PSI range. I'm not one to play with the dragon's tail and I really don't want to be getting into dangerous territory at all, let alone for an extra 200 fps... 280 Rem velocity has been fine with me for years and thankfully game doesn't seem to be getting tougher in my neck of the woods.

Bill and his son told me that they normally keep the PSI below SAAMI max by 2,000-3,000 PSI for safety sake; hence my conservative comment. They also don't know how close a reloader seats the bullet to the lands, and thus they want some safety margin for the bullet being close to or touching the lands.


Drakehammer,
Throat or AI the thing. I talked to one gunsmith about it last year, he referred me to Dick Williams gunsmithing in Saginaw Michigan who I did talk to as well. Price on AI'ing the rifle was very reasonable, in my opinion. Once the new 280 AI gets settled, I'll see how I want to standardize. Currently have two 280 Rems and the new 280 AI that was just too good of deal to pass. Really wanted the rifle, would have been just as happy with a regular 280 Rem as I am with the AI. It is fun to experiment!

 

[drakehammer]

Drakehammer,
Throat or AI the thing. I talked to one gunsmith about it last year, he referred me to Dick Williams gunsmithing in Saginaw Michigan who I did talk to as well. Price on AI'ing the rifle was very reasonable, in my opinion. Once the new 280 AI gets settled, I'll see how I want to standardize. Currently have two 280 Rems and the new 280 AI that was just too good of deal to pass. Really wanted the rifle, would have been just as happy with a regular 280 Rem as I am with the AI. It is fun to experiment!

If I understand your problem correctly, you have a new AI with a short throat, and its forcing you to seat bullets too deep into the case. So my suggestion is to get the throat lengthened. Its not uncommon to have throats lengthened when bullet choice doesn’t work well with short throats. Its no different than chasing the lands due to throat erosion.


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[Nimrod84]

Drakehammer,
Please forgive my lack of concise writing.

The new 280 AI has a workable throat.

I have an older 280 Rem that has very short throat requiring a short 3.2" cartridge length. I purchased the Scirocco's for this rifle when I forgot its short throat. I would not have purchased the Scirocco for the 280 AI given the minimal data available.

As such, I am trying to come up with some real world data for the Scirocco in the 280 Ackley Improved rifle. I am trying to get an idea of what works, what to expect and not reinvent the wheel.

Again, please forgive my poor writing practices and have a good weekend.

 

[hunter24605]

Swift does seemingly keep the charges a little on the low side for the Scirocco, with good reason. Because of its long bearing surface and its thicker gilding metal jacket, it builds pressure quicker than Accubonds and similar bullets of the same weight. I spent a good while on the phone with Bill at Swift and he set me on the right path with the Scirocco. That being said, I would really give RL-26 a look..It worked great in my non-AI 280, and a bunch of other cartridges.

Its not a gilded metal jacket. Its a solid copper jacket which tends to copper foul more readily than gilded metal jackets, such as those used for ballistic tips and accubonds.


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You're correct..somewhere during my editing i left out "thicker THAN a gilded metal jacket like on accubonds etc."

 

[Dwh7271]

Nimrod;
Fwiw, I'd call Swift. Nice folks.
They probably have some recipes that work.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Reloder 26 between 58 and 61 grains, or so.

 

[Nimrod84]

Thank you Ridgerunner665.
The current plan is to start with about 56 grains of RL-22 and work up to 59; see where the velocity comes in. I'll probably try remnants of a can of IMR 4955, start at 57 grains and work up again to 59 grains; just to see what the velocity is and if I'm intrigued buy another can.

Dwh7271,
I've talked to Swift, not much help but they are good people. Bill refereed me to Hodgdon's data and then backed off when he heard how big a discrepancy I have with H4831sc and the 160 AB which Hodgdon list.