Question on case thicknesses

[tjen]

I am looking for actual case thicknesses between the 30-30win, 35rem, and 358win. I have an understanding the 35rem case is just as thick as the 30-30win and can handle the same pressures. I have loaded +P 35rem loads for about six years now and have never had any signs of pressure. Actual about 10% under 30-30 pressure levels. I have several manuals that state the 356win has thicker brass for strength than the 358win because of the 94 lever it was made for and its rear lockup bolt.

Now I am told the 35rem can handle the same pressures as the 358win and I am sceptical. Is the case for both have the same thickness and thus have the strength if in the same rifle? I my be wrong but I belive there are different thicknesses for different cases and even in strong bolt actions the case may govern its max pressure.

I have never seen any drawings showing the min thickness for any cartridge. but manufactures have to have this information. I say in a 336 the 35rems case will be the weak link when trying to push the pressure limited. If only from the simple deduction that the 356win in the same gun required a thicker case than that of the 358win.

Whats the correct answer?

 

[Elkman]

I think you stumped the panel, great question.

 

[Guest]

The issue for pressure containment is a combination of the brass and the rifle. If you shoot any round outside its SAAMI specs, you risk damage due to either brass or rifle (steel) failure, or a combination of the two.

I would not load up the 35Rem to 30-30WCF pressure levels without some serious research into the thicknesses of the barrels, actions, and chamber walls, as well as the design and load bearing capacity of the locking mechanism (the "lugs" for short) on said rifle. I suspect you will find it is not a good idea. As for loading the 35Rem up to 356Win pressures, I'll only say that if you don't have good medical coverage, short- and long-term disability coverage, and life insurance, you'd be advised to bind those contracts appropriately prior to undertaking such an exercise. I am not well versed in the Marlin 336 design, but I can tell you that Winchester had to significantly alter the Win94 receiver to accommodate the increased pressures of the 307/356 cartridges, which are respectively analogous to the 308/358 cartridges for bolt guns, as I understand it. They did this by increasing the receiver mass and substantially beefing up the lockup mechanism and lug-mating surfaces of the action.

The best solution is to stick to what is spec for each round. If you have a 35Rem, and you're loading above published specs, that's your business. But one day, that rifle may give out on you, catastrophically, due to metal fatigue from pressures outside the design limits, or from the variation in powder burn rates from one lot to the next, or the ambient temps, or the alignment of the moon and stars. It is, in my estimation, a poor risk. If you want a stouter 35, in a compact package, consider buying a new rifle that is better suited to the velocities you are attempting to achieve. I'd never try to work the 35Rem up to anything close to the 55-60kpsi the 356 is running. That's just asking to be blinded and need prosthetic hands, at best.

Ultimately, brass thickness has very little to do with the question you're asking, as the brass isn't going to be strong enough to hold together should the steel let go.

 

[joelkdouglas]

I think you stumped the panel, great question.

That's the case over here!

 

[DrMike]

I hesitated to wade into this query. However, web thickness and chamber tolerances in addition to brass composition and thickness, should all be taken into consideration. Were the differences in SAAMI standards varied by only a few percent, the possibility could exist that one might safely play with increased pressure. However, since we are speaking of differences that vary quite a bit (thirty percent in the case of the .356 Win contra the 35 Rem), it would be foolhardy to tamper with loads. Using standard powders that are commonly employed in the 35 Rem, loading density won't permit a full case fill; you would need to use faster powders. Second, velocity increases are less than one might expect (less than ten percent) even when pressure limits are increased. Dubyam gave you excellent advice. If you wish to try this, make certain you have some good insurance.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I agree with DrMike and Dubyam. Why even try to make a .358 out of a .35 Rem? The Marlin 336 rifle in .35 Rem is designed for 35 KSI SAAMI loads maximum. Besides, I would not use anybody's chart of case dimensions and would machine the cases and measure for myself what the wall thickness is.

A few .35 Rem were chambered in Model 70 Pre-War bolt action rifles and those may be candidates for a higher loading density? That is if you can find and afford one, let alone shooting a rare rifle like that.

Some things are better left as they are! This sounds like a fool's errand!

 

[PJGunner]

"A few .35 Rem were chambered in Model 70 Pre-War bolt action rifles and those may be candidates for a higher loading density? That is if you can find and afford one, let alone shooting a rare rifle like that."

I was thinking along those lines as well thinking it's possible with the Winchesters M54 and M70 plus the Remington M30. I think some of the Remington 600 and 660s were also chambered to the .35 Rem. With one of those mentioned, I might experiment slightly but in a lever action, well other than one in a BLR no way. However, I don't think the BLR was ever chambered in .35 Rem.
I'm thinking if you want .356 Win. power get a rifle chaambered for .356 or better yet get a Browning BLR chamber to the .358 Win. and be done with it.
Frankly, I don't think those Marlins chamber for the .307 and .356 were beefed up any, if at all. Maybe different heat treating or something like that but the ones I saw didn't look any beefier than ones in 30-30.
Hotrodding the .35 Rem. is IMHO not a good idea. Having to go to thr ER to have gun parts removed from my head just does not sound much like a fun thing to me. :roll:
Paul B.

 

[SJB358]

TJen, if you want more speed out of the 35 Rem, I would really look at the Hodgdon LVR powder. It will get you to the high 2200's with most loads out of a M336 and pressures seem very low to me. I am running the 200 grain Rem CLRN at it comes in right at 2290 out of my rifle and will shoot into about 1.5-2" at 100 yards using the peep sights. I am sure with a scope it would be an easy 1" load. Case life is excellent, I can't seem to stretch the cases and everything seems to be doing really well in my rifle with that load.

I am with the others, no sense in trying to really make a 35 Rem hammer out 358 Win speeds. I am not sure the case would give out, but I wouldn't wanna test the waters when the 35 Rem works so well, as it. I got a 35 Rem and decided to give LVR a try, but it would be hard to mess with it, if I already had good loads like you do.

Same for the 30-30, I am able to touching 2250 - 2300 with 170 Speers/170 Sierra's and accuracy is excellent. That is probably about a 100FPS over what most other powders get, without having to do funny tricks with it. I like LVR for those two rounds, it is accurate as I need with iron sights and gives a little extra thump, but it is pretty hard to beat good old WW 170 Silvertips or Rem Core Lokt's in the 30-30, same goes for Remington's 200 grain CLRN factory load.

 

[tjen]

The reason for my post was on another forum a poster was going to use 250gr shallow seated WFN bullets to get up to the heals of the 358win with a 35rem in a 336. Stating that the 35rem case is the same brass as the 358win and brass is brass there for it will handle the same pressure. With in his eyes the 336 is the weak link. I said it will be the 35rems case that will be the weak link.


As far as the 35rem +P loads go the 35rem has been under loaded right from the start due to the Modle #8 limitations. In a 336, 760/7600/and bolt actions it has been loaded to +P at 10% under the 30-30wins pressure just for safty. The 40.5gr of H4895 with a 200gr at 2200fps works perfectly in a 336. Western powder sent me +P loads for the 35rem using TAC (40.0grs,200gr,2250fps) so they are not worried. And since LVR has come out you can match or beat that with less pressure.

Same for the 358win due to the semi auto winchester. Other than an article comparing the 338fed with up loaded 358win in Handloader Magazine which show a 225gr at 2600 fps in a bolt action there has not been much talk about it.

 

[Oldtrader3]

A 225gr what at 2600? It is not clear in your post which caliber you are referring to?

I am sceptical of a 225 .338 bullet from a .338 Federal at 2600 fps. I have not been able to safely get 2600 fps from a 210 Partition, at least not with IMR 3031 or 4064 in the .338 Federal. Certainly not at pressures which I would want to shoot, day in and day out, in my Sako.

 

[SJB358]

A 225gr what at 2600? It is not clear in your post which caliber you are referring to?

I think he is talking about the John Barsness article that was published awhile back Charlie.

 

[tjen]

The article in hand loader was about comparing the 358win and 338fed at the same pressure levels in bolt actions. So at the same pressure the 358 would beat the velocity of the 338fed with the same bullet weights. I think he said the 358 had 95% of the case capacity of the whelen and it should be able to match 95% of the whelen untill its case capacity was lowered. Which starts with the 225gr bullets.

For me a simply 2500fps ave with a 225gr would be super. My thinking is 2000fps at 300 yards with a Partition gives me 100fps margin for its lower impact velocity of 1900fps. Reality is I may never shoot over 200 yards with the 358win any way. My 200gr loads are only 2480fps and thats just fine for white tails if under 250 yards.

With the 35rem the 200gr CLRN hits hard with a MV of 2188fps which is tuned to my 336D. So far its worked fine from 15 to 70 yards. That 2300fps load looked pretty nice in that watre test, Model #7 was it?

Switching subject a bit here. My close cover rig is a 336D/VXII 1-4, next a 700/358win/VX3 1.5-5, and then a 7600 35 whelen which I took the 1.5-5 from. I think a 1.75-6 would work well on it giving me three different rigs in range and power.

 

[Guest]

It should be obvious that the 358 would beat the 338 with the same bullet weights, at equal pressures. To get a fair comparison, you have to compare what I call "equal weight for caliber" bullets. Compare based on SD, and you'll get the most reasonable and directly applicable comparisons. For instance, a 140gr 7mm bullet is comparable to the 165gr 308cal bullet, as the two SDs are equal (.248). Not surprisingly, the two bullets are frequently used on the same types of game. And yet, from the 7mm-08, the 140gr is moving about 2800-2900fps, where the 165gr in the 308Win is moving about 2700-2800fps. Now, if you compare 150gr bullets in both cartridges, the velocity difference is startlingly in favor of the 308Win, by about 200fps (2800 v. 3000fps). And yet, I'd be far more comfortable with a 150gr in a 7mm-08 chasing elk in thick timber than a 150gr in a 308Win. In fact, in the 308, that's a white-tail/antelope bullet. In the 7mm, it's a combination bullet that will certainly do the job on elk (if you're using a Partition or some such). If Barsness is comparing the 338 and the 358 with 200 and 225gr bullets and calling it a direct comparison, he's misleading his readers. I haven't read the article, though, so I'm not calling him out specifically. He's generally a pretty good writer and seems to have his head screwed on straight.

 

[tjen]

I think its a given that SD will not be the same with two bullets of the same weight but in different calibers. I perfere SD close to .250 for most big game hunting and move up to .270 for larger game like elk and moose. You do under stand that SD while very inportant for penitration with small caliber is not quite as important as the caliber increases. And it is directly related to the size of game you are hunting. And how much momentum comes from mass.

I will pick two of my favorite cartridges the 35whelen with a 225gr PT and a 270win with a 150gr PT. In my experance the penitrate about the same but the 225gr with less SD works much better on elk sixed game. And think about a 45cal not need for a .280 SD bullet to punch through a elk.

 

[Oldtrader3]

Part of that observation is backed up by the fact that most DGR calibers (.366 and over) do not have any bullet selection which is less than .260 SD, nor bullet weights less than 260 grains as well which at the moderate velocities of DGR's penetrate well.

 

[tjen]

I hate having to finish a post with out actual numbers on hand like the 45 cal SD's so as not to make a big blunder. I have not put any of the big cal SD to memory but it seems 250 to 300grs is light and 350 to 420grs starts that ball rolling as to extreme penitration. Of course bullet construction is everything. I would extpect the 250gr .452 used in alot of ML's would blast through most deer.

I am jelous of the fact the 338federal has full pressure data for loading and the 358win does not. Its more fore peace of mind to know loads have been tested and its just your guns differance to watch out for.

I think if I had a 338fed I would use the 200gr Spire point for most anything. I wish I had a 225gr Spire point or Corelokt for the 358win.

 

[Oldtrader3]

The 300 gr .375 H&H solid bullets are notorius for having extreme penetration while having a sectional density of .300, whereas the .458WM, 500 grain is not known for having good penetration because it will not make its published velocity numbers of 2000 fps.

If you want a lever gun that will give you that level of performance, buy a .357 Winchester. Then you will have nothing to be jealous about and will have the performance of the .358 in a lever caliber.

As for the .338 Federal, I use the 200 gr factory load and the Spire points for range fodder and would use them for deer. For elk, I would prefer and already use a good load with the 210 Partition at 2570 fps using IMR 4064. The 210 gr Partition is already famous as an elk killer so, why look a gift horse in the mouth?.