Range report 8/1/13

[wisconsinteacher]

Well I just got back from the new club I joined The fee is twice as much as the old one. It is $20.00 per year and I have to go the to gas station to get the key.(sarcasm) It is only 9 miles from the door and they have a 200 yard range, I guess life is not bad.

I shot my 6.5 Grendel 8 times with no issues. Last time I had a case separate. My groups were not that great. I shot 2-4 shot groups at 100 yards. 1.08 and 1.186. I did not really let the rifle cool down and I never came off the stock. I just wanted to shoot to test function.

My 22-250 shot a .800" group but I know I can do better.

My main goal was to test my Win primers in my 25-06 because I had 5 misfires in the 30-06. I shot 2-5 shot groups and all of them fired. I used some 75 gr Vmax's and got a .934 and .968" groups. Again, I was really testing function and wanted to see if they fired. I think this load would work as a coyote ripper.

Lastly, I shot my 30-06 with my Rem brass that had 5 our of 10 misfires with Win primers. This time I used CCI 200 primers and all 3 rounds I made up fired. I measured the head space before I loaded them with the Hornady Headspace Gauge.

#1 before=2.037" after=2.042"

#2 before=2.038" after=2.041"

#3 before 2.039" after 2.042"

So my question is, why will the CCI primers fire and the Win primers will not? I am going to load up 10 more rounds with Win primers and try them again next week. I have some work to do to figure this issue out.

 

[truck driver]

If you had some pics of the primers that didn't go it would help to access the problem. Miss handled primers could be the problem or some hard grease in the bolt if they are light hits.

 

[wisconsinteacher]

 

[wisconsinteacher]

 

[DrMike]

It does appear that the primers are not seated deeply enough to ensure ignition. Whilst you needn't crush the primers, you must ensure that there is no movement forward upon striking with the firing pin. True the primer pockets before the first use and seat to ensure that the cup is in contact with the bottom of the primer pocket.

 

[wisconsinteacher]

DrMike, the primers may not be seated deep enough, but in 8 years of reloading, I have never had a misfire and I seated these like I seat all my other primers. I will keep a closer eye on things next time. I am going to work up a batch to try soon.

 

[laylandad]

How old are the primers in question? The reason I ask is, I've had the same thing happening with my WLR primers. It has happened in two different rifles.

 

[wisconsinteacher]

They are no more than 2 years old and have been in a zip lock bag.

 

[DrMike]

I'm looking at the indentation on the primers. Add to this the knowledge that WLR primers have brass cups whilst CCI primers are constructed with steel cups. Brass cups on brass cases must make solid contact in order to ensure ignition due to metal lubricity. Any play in seating to the floor of the primer pocket will allow for misfires. Steel cups in brass pockets have less lubricity and hence better ignition if there is a slight error in seating. If the primers in that particular lot are faulty, they will fail in other systems. Have you tried this? If they are not failing there, then the problem is seating. There may be contributing factors (weakened firing spring, a burr on the firing pin or on the firing pin hole, etc.); however, these are extenuating factors and not the primary cause. The fact that you've never had this happen before does not negate the reality of what is happening. I've been hand loading for a few years, and I have witnessed such failures on multiple occasions. Whilst I might be able to dress a firing pin, ream a firing pin hole, install a new spring, clean grit and dirt from the firing pin assembly, ultimately, the primary cause of failure to fire is traced back to failure to properly seat the primer. This may be due to slight exaggerated specs for the brass or slight exaggerations for the cups of the primers, but I am the one seating them ultimately.

 

[Oldtrader3]

"Coefficient of surface friction"! :mrgreen:

 

[wisconsinteacher]

Thanks for the good explanation Dr. I will test the components again this week and report back on the out come. I did try the primers in my 25-06 and they all worked. 10 for 10.

 

[kraky1]

Hey DrMike....that was a good tutorial on the construction of primers. I too have had problems with win primers in the past and now may know why.
BUT....maybe you can tell us more about the interaction of the win primers with todays primer pockets?
I always use a primer pocket uniformer to clean the primer pockets and use a rcbs hand primer to make sure they are well seated. But I still have trouble with win primers from time to time.
What "I think" I see more and more on todays brass....especially winchester....is the floor of the primer pocket is sort of cone shaped. Maybe the middle of the floor moves in as they punch the flash hole??
Anyhow I say this cause often when I hit them with the uniformer it only takes the very outside of the pocket off and leaves 95% of the middle still soot covered. I just don't remember seeing this in the old days. I use finger pressure to clean. I supposed I could hook up the drill and really go at it but you've got me thinking......are win primers prone to having ignition problems with this kind of pocket?

 

[DrMike]

I uniform the pockets the first time on many of the cases. I don't have to do this with cases that have drilled pockets rather than punched pockets. You are correct that the pockets themselves are not always square--some are coned. Back in the day, Winchester primers were built with steel cups; they were among the finest primers you could use. Some years back they began to make the cups with brass, and I noted the occasional misfire. I worked out the details and have had few problems since. Remington primers, though made with brass cups, seem not as sensitive as are Winchester primers to this seating issue. I suspect there is a difference in composition. The bottom line is that so long as you firmly seat the Winchester primer to the floor of the pocket, they are no more prone to misfire than are any other primer.

 

[JD338]

I always square up my primer pockets on new brass.

JD338

 

[boomer68]

What primers have you found the best DrMike?

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[DrMike]

I can't honestly say that one primer is better than another. I use representatives at various times produced by Remington, Winchester, Federal and CCI--all work well, provided I choose based on the powder column, powder composition and bullet weight. I just worked up some loads for a .280 this evening using CCI BR2 for some sets and F210M for others. I'll be working up some loads for a 35 Whelen tomorrow. They will be constructed with CCI250 and CCI200 primers. I use fewer Remington primers, primarily because supply has been skinny in my area during the past couple of years. I scored big on CCI and Federal primers, and consequently, I use a lot of Federal and CCI primers. I can honestly say that I've only ever found bad primers from two separate lots in the years of hand loading, and each of those was from a separate manufacturer. I proved to my satisfaction that it was a problem with the primers and not with my technique by working across multiple cartridges with both drilled and punched pockets. One set of primers helped me tag a grizzly, but as I put the last shot into the bear--misfire. Checked the lot, and about one out of six or seven misfired.

 

[Oldtrader3]

I prefer not to use Remington. I mostly use Federal and CCI. If I can get them I use Match primers (BR-2 and Fed215MM) a lot just because they are more consistant.

 

[kraky]

Fwiw I bought a new cva scout single shot rifle a yr back. It was a neat little carry gun in 7-08. From new on it left extremely light primer strikes and was prone to vertical stringing. I sent it in and they did some work and I'm hoping its fixed.
Anyhow with the light strikes I was getting 1 out of 10 misfires w/win primers. Never ever had a misfire w/federal 210.
I'm pretty much a federal guy....but picked up the wins when fed were hard to get. I'll get em used up sooner or later but reinforced my loyalty.
I've also had trouble w/the win primers in a 30/30 that seems to leave solid strikes on the primers...not sure why there but never a failure to ignite w/fed there either.

 

[boomer68]

I have been using Federal as well. Never had any problems.

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[SJB358]

Been primarily using CCI250's and BR2's for quite awhile and I can't remember a misfire. Not saying it won't happen, but they've been very good to me.