Rifle Grouping - Winchester Model 70

[astroman86]

I doubt the problem is related specifically to my model rifle, but, I have a question about my grouping:

Shooting the Win Model 70 Sporter .300 Win Mag. Using Remington Express Core-Lokt 180gr, which is the cheapest line of their ammo.

Self-mounted the scope, tightened everything like heck, vertical alignment less than 1 degree, and using a cradle rest (but have used sand bags with same results).

What happens is that I can get two shots within 1 MOA, but there is almost always an outlier a good 4"-6" away. I check the target, come back and shoot, and then the group is suddenly 4-8 MOA with no pattern around the target at all. Let my girlfriend shoot, and then she shoots 1 MOA all of the sudden.

Check target again, then I'll start shooting 1 MOA on bullseye, again, but she'll be 6" to the right all of the sudden with a group of 3. And this is after sighting in for her 1 MOA group at the start if the day, which started off 6" to the right before adjusting the scope.

I can't seem to find any consistency! Is it our shooting, are we flinching? We record our shooting on video and we really do squeeze the trigger and it shoots before we flinch - but we do tend to flinch like crazy after the shot. Is our flinching perhaps early enough to affect the rifle during firing?
Are those Remington rounds too cheap? Scope loose?

All of the above?

Any pointers? It's buggin the heck outta me!

Thanks.

 

[rick smith]

Are you letting the barrel cool between shots? Is the barrel floated? Have you adjusted the trigger? Using good hearing protection? Checked the action screws? Has a known good shooter shot your rifle?
Any flinch is bad for groups. Follow through is important, crosshair and trigger control. Get a PAST strap on recoil pad and use it when you shoot. Practice with a 22LR at shorter distances, then move up in caliber to something like a 243. Leave the magnum alone until you master technique. Let someone else load your rifle so you don't know if there is a round in the chamber or not, the firing pin should move but not the rifle.Rick.

 

[DrMike]

astroman,

It is impossible to diagnosis accurately without actually seeing what is happening, but you are touching on several potential problems. It is not likely the ammunition. If you told me that it was consistently a three inch, or a six inch group, I might suggest ammunition as the problem. When you tell me that the first two shots are 1 MOA and the third is out by 4 to 8, there is another problem. It is not likely the scope, but you can check that by ensuring that all the mounts and rings are tight, and by checking against a scope that is known to be good from another rifle. Perhaps your rifle needs to be free floated--a pressure point can cause the barrel to walk. The possibility of a flinch must be addressed. Even a slight movement within the one to two milliseconds following ignition of the primer is sufficient to move the group. The fact that your girlfriend will suddenly get one MOA following your experience points to a flinch. However, does the rifle print to the same POI when she shoots? If so, then it is almost definitely a flinch.

Is this your first rifle? Are you wed to the 300 WM? Could you be content with a 30-06? Or a .308? I would advise asking a friend to help you determine if you are flinching, and help you overcome the flinch by loading your rifle and handing it to you to shoot. At some point, your friend should hand you a rifle that has no cartridge, but is cocked and locked. If you are flinching, it will be obvious.

In part, you can clean up the groups by addressing the trigger to ensure that it is crisp, breaking cleanly with no creep, and that it is set at a reasonable weight. Also, make certain you are wearing good hearing protection. Finally, make certain your rifle has a good butt pad (perhaps a limb savr or a Pachmayr Decelerator).

As an aside, I have witnessed on an almost annual basis fellows who are shooting six inch groups or worse at the range who tell me that their rifle is shot out. Frequently, they are shooting .300 Winchester Magnums or larger cartridges. Frequently, these fellows will ask me to shoot their rifle to see what sort of group I can get. The fact that they are shooting factory ammunition tells me that they don't shoot frequently, and usually the condition of the rifle tells me it is relatively new.

It is not at all unusual that in conversation with them I'll ask if their wife or girlfriend shoots. They have almost always responded in the affirmative. When I ask what their loved one shoots, they respond "7mm-08," or something similar. When I inquire whether they can shoot the rifle well, the fellows answer in the affirmative again. "Do they take game?" I will ask. And again the fellows will answer in the affirmative. My final question is always, "What does this tell you?"

It is accuracy that takes game and that makes shooting interesting. A bad hit with a rifle that is uncomfortable or unpleasant to shoot is a bad hit, regardless of how big the bullet and how great the velocity.

 

[astroman86]

Thanks for the replies.

Well, I'm betting with you guys that it's inexperience and flinch.

I haven't shot for 15 years. Grew up on a farm, shot a pump bb-gun shooting sparrows all my childhood, could shoot a lolly-pop stick in two at 20 yards; got a .22LR when I was 12, shot groundhogs with it, longest head-shot was at 180 yards; then went to 22-250 when I was 16 and made a 350 yrd shot once, never had an opportunity to go further.

Since then, went to school for 15 years (astrophysics), hung out with liberal academics, but was rescued last year by a great conservative gal! Realized liberal academia was full of **it.

Anyway! We started with fishing last year, and indeed, was as good at catching fish as I was long ago.

I picked up the .300 Win Mag because that was the one I wanted before I quit shooting. But unlike fishing, shooting isn't like getting back on the bicycle. I guess this tells it, but the first few times shooting I was quite nervous, even a few hand trembles while loading the mag. So, I guess what do you expect. Sounds like I should pick up a .22 and shoot that for a bit, maybe get a snap cap for my .300 and practice on that, training my brain as much as I can.

It's all new equipment and the scope rings and screws are tight as can be - the fact that sometimes I can shoot a fine group and others not, must just show I'm rusty.

Guess I just needed someone to tell me, but least now I'm certain where the work needs done! Gotta get through a few boxes of store shells before I start reloading, but I've bought all that stuff too, lol!

Thanks guys.

 

[DrMike]

astroman,

Everybody should have a .22. However, don't give up on centre fire rifles. Perhaps it would be good to trade it in on something that gives you less concern. A 7mm-08, 280, 270, 6.5 X 55, 260, or even a 243 will permit you to shoot, focusing on the enjoyment of shooting rather than focusing on the recoil. Anyone can work up to a rifle that has more recoil, but few can jump into such rifles without some assistance.

Another thought that may be of help to you is to review the Speer Reloading Manual #14, which gives reduced loads for your rifle. Load up 150 grain bullets with SR 4759, and practise until you are comfortable with the load. Then work up a heavier load with, say a 165 grain bullet and SR4759 until you are comfortable with that load. Remember, recoil is determined by factors such as weight of the projectile, weight of the powder and weight of the rifle. The stock design on the Model 70 is excellent.

Consequently, I really like the Model 70. I have quite a collection of Model 70 Featherweights in my safe. They generally are good rifles, and the newer ones are very well made.

Best of luck as you pursue this great sport. There are some opportunities for some excellent physics in ballistics work, as you likely know.

It sounds as if you were rescued by a delightful gal. Any gal that enjoys fishing and shooting has to be good.

 

[astroman86]

Yah and she shoots hand guns too!

And just discussing this with her, we both realized at the same time that both our Sig's (.45ACP & 9mm) have a way lighter trigger pull than the rifle. They're listed as coming in at 4.5lb from the factory. The model 70 is supposed to be 3.5lb from the factory, so either the Sig's came in low or the 70 high, or both.

Tried taking the stock off to get at the trigger (the manual comes with instructions for adjusting, done it years ago), but, after removing the two bolts under the action, nothing will budge and there's no other bolts in sight. Am I missing something? Incidentally, the front bolt on the action cover was loose, rear one very tight.

So I'll take it to a gunsmith, and have him check the whole thing out: remount scope, lighten the trigger, make sure barrel is floating, etc. Then I'll be sure it's all in my form only.

We use a magnum pad and don't really feel any recoil at all, though things do jump a lot.

Thanks for the help!

 

[Elkman]

astro

While the gun smith has it also have him glass bed the recoil lug. My Model 70 ,300 has a basix trigger plus all of the above and then some. Shoots little itty, bitty groups

 

[astroman86]

Thanks Elkman, will do. That trigger looks nice...only $100, so might give that a try as well.

Cheers

 

[JD338]

astroman86

I am thinking either a bedding problem or operator error.
The fellas have made some great suggestions for you and getting a bedding job is great advice. I would recommend getting it pillar bedded.

Keep us posted on how things work out and let us know if there is any more we can do to help assist you.

Are you going to be reloading? If so, where are a couple of proven loads that you may want to try in your 300 Win Mag.

BTW, your girlfriend is a keeper. :wink: :grin:

JD338

 

[cloverleaf]

Watcha doin playin with a 300 Win Mag brother!?!?!? Kidding- but only partially, That is a great calibre in a classic rifle. didnt read the whole post but IF you are flinching. here's some advice. Hearing protection, recoil pad, proper stock fit and butt angle and when all else fails a muzzle break. CL

 

[astroman86]

@cloverleaf
Well, it's a round I've always wanted, that's all :grin:


I might not be giving my shooting experience enough credit, even though I've been out of it for some time.

The first time I shot the rifle, about 2 months ago, I shot about 25 rounds and was getting overlapping holes with 3 shot groups at 50yrd. By about 10 rounds through my shoulder was sore and bruised (wasn't using a pad, but have since then!) but it didn't affect my groups - just grimaced through the pain and squeezed the rounds out. Have always used excellent hearing protection.

The groups and consistency have steadily opened up every time I've gone out since then (4 times, shooting ~25 rounds each time), until this last time I can't make any sense of things at all. Yes I could be developing a flinch, but, I do know how to shoot.

Now, of the two bolts that hold the stock to the action/barrel, one was completely loose. That likely wasn't helping. Checked the wood grips on my two new Sig's, and a screw on one of them was loose too.
What is this telling me? To take better care of my new stuff. Just don't shoot it out of the box without checking things over (i.e. screws and bolts and such, in addition to obviously having checked the actions etc).


So, the gun is at the smith's now, getting the glass bedding done as suggested above, trigger weight lowered to what I'm used to (varmint gun hair trigger weight), etc. I'll let everyone know on this thread the results after it comes back.

Cheers!

 

[SJB358]

You sound like you are on the right track. Mike gave you great advice with reduced loads if you are loading your own, also, Remington has reduced recoil loads for the 300WM also. IF I were in your shoes, I would put a good muzzle brake on the rifle. It will reduce your recoil to less than half. It will make it louder I guess, but overall, the rifle will be very shootable and comfortable for longer range sessions. I am a bigger guy, but recoil is one thing that builds on a guy. It is cumulative to some extent.

By all accounts, your M70 300WM should be an excellent shooter when it comes back from the smith, and sounds pretty good the way it was. Another good alternative is another centerfire .22. .22's rimfires are fun to mess with, but with a .22 centerfire of one form or fashion, you can still practice out to further ranges and alternate between your 300. I like to have a 243 or 22-250 at the range with me, just for that purpose. Good luck, sounds like you have ID'ed your issues and have taken great care to fix them up proper! Scotty

 

[Ridge_Runner]

have your smith install a pachmeyer decellerator pad, it sounds as though something is shooting loose, as you stated its gotten steadily worse over 4 trips out. the glass bedding should help the action screws coming loose, try it and see.
RR

 

[Oldtrader3]

My Model 70 will not come out of the stock easily either. It takes a light tap or two from a rubber hammer to break it loose. They are bedded with a resilient substance that feels like hot melt. This holds the action rather tightly in the stock.

You may want to check the clearance of the barrel channel between the forend and the barrel. You should be able to slide a dollar all the way to the action from the foreend tip.

 

[RiverRider]

Bedding could be the problem for sure, but it sounds to me as though there might possibly be a scope issue. First thing I think is "parallax," especially when one shooter gets six-inch groups and then another gets one-inch groups. One shooter may have a more consistent cheek weld that the other...but then again, six-inch parallax errors at 100 yards? I dunno about that! A couple of inches seems more reasonable to me.

Another facet of the scope question: you can easily crush a scope tube by over-tightening the rings. There is a vast difference between sufficiently tight and tightened all the way.

 

[astroman86]

Okay so here's what happened:

Took the gun to the smith with the various instructions gleaned from this thread.
The gunsmith said the stock is already so well bedded, he wouldn't want to charge me money doing it over and there'd be no point in trying to improve it.
Also said the barrel is floated very nicely and there was no work that needed to be done on that.
The only thing that was done was the trigger weight was lowered to the min allowed by the factory trigger, which is about 3lbs.

So, all in all a brand new Win70 Sporter seems to be an excellently constructed rifle.

Range results:
My girl and I finally had some good weather and shot it yesterday. My first group of 3 was depressing - about 3MOA. However, I was using a new "Steady Point" stand, and even though you'd think all metal parts would provide a solid base, it was shaking around all over the place. Easily 1-3 MOA just in shake. Wished I brought my sandbags. Plus it was my first group and maybe I hadn't settled in yet.

Anyway, I got the stand all tightened down and stiffened as mush as I could, and let my girl shoot. She shot a 1 MOA group on her first try.
Then I shot again and also managed a 1 MOA group.
Then her Dad shot, but he hasn't shot in 20 years so he didn't even hit the paper.
Then she shot again and got slightly under 1 MOA! (3 shot groups all above)
Then I shot a 5-round group and got 3/4MOA! ALL holes were touching at 100yrds, and a couple of the holes were almost completely taken up by an adjacent hole.
My girl and I were both very aware of how much nicer the trigger felt at the lower weight too...just perfect where it is now.

So, quite happy with this result! Maybe it was all in the trigger weight, and the loose action/stock screw I had found before sending it into the gunsmiths.
Next time will go out with sandbags and see if I can be more consistent right off the get go. After the 5-shot group rain came in and so we had to leave, but I checked the barrel and it would have blistered my skin if I held my fingers on it. So yah we didn't shoot that much, and so for you 300-round shooters out there our results might not be worth squat. But at least we've both proved we have potential to shoot sub-MOA with this gun.

Would you expect better accuracy from a boiling hot barrel, or was it us getting into our groove shooting? Maybe the barrel-slap matches better for factory rounds and a HOT 26" barrel. Well, we can check that next time going back to shooting off sandbags. Was shooting Hornady Custom ammo, not the cheaper Remington stuff.

We'll take it out a few more times this summer and see if things stay consistent, and put a few hundred rounds downrange between us.

 

[Antelope_Sniper]

Yea, loose action screws are a bad thing....might of had something to do with your issue.

Most benchrest shooters will shoot a few rounds to "warm up" their barrel before setteling down to shoot their groups. I usually shoot 3-5 rounds through a rifle, open the action, and set it aside, picking up the next rifle in the rack. I've found that rotating through 3-4 rifles like this keeps the barrels at a reasonable temperature, and you are not just sitting waiting for it to cool off. Letting the barrel cool between shots is less important when you have a properly floated barrel and bedded action.

 

[Elkman]

Sounds like you are on track now. From your note it ended up being a loose screw which will certainly effect how the rifles comes back in battery, loose screws allow the barrel and action to move around and not return or hold the same spot in the stock each time. It was also nice to hear the trigger was also adjustable for you. YOu have a good shooter now and will enjoy it much more. Sounds like your GF may need a rifle of her own some day.

 

[OldMan]

On a hunting rifle the first shot or 2 are the most important! If it won't hit where it's supposed to on the first shot, either the rifle or you need work! I have a model 70 in 300 wby that gave me fits, it wouldn't group worth a darn till the barrel heated up. How many animals have you all had stand around till you got your barrel warmed up? Mine had the tang bedded too tight, you need a little clearance behind the tang so the recoil lug always does it's job. By the way I figured this out because it split my stock out at this point.

Mine now shoots 3 shots into .750 inch groups at 100 with a cold barrel. Free floated the barrel and glassed the recoil lug. Also glassed the tang with clearance behind!