i know its been talked about a hundred times before,, iv been searching and reading ,but now im totally confused on which to do,, this rifle will be mainly a hunting rig (30/06 and a 270wsm) my RCBS FL die is set up to cam over at a full strok ,, as the rcbs manual states,, but after reading some post on head space and PFLS im wondering if im not over working my brass and not needing to do a FLS ,, the rounds will be used only in my rifles but i do want reliable feeding at all times,, what should i do???
??s on fl sizing or PFLS
- Thread starter romex2121
- Start date
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Throttle back on the die, and extend your brass life. You should only size the brass enough to bump the shoulder back a smidgeon (about .002" or so) to make the case easy to chamber. this will apply plenty enough taper to the case walls and fully size the neck, which is all you're aiming for. You'll get a lot longer life from your cases, and maybe a bit better accuracy, to boot.
Fully sizing the brass (camming over the press against the die) every time will give you a loose fit in the chamber, and the result will be casehead stretch, and eventually casehead separation, which is bad medicine.
Fully sizing the brass (camming over the press against the die) every time will give you a loose fit in the chamber, and the result will be casehead stretch, and eventually casehead separation, which is bad medicine.
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,181
- 5,645
The brass fired in the chamber of your rifle is fire formed; it now fits your chamber. As you fire cartridges, the brass will stretch each time. However, this is insignificant for a while as there is some room remaining after firing as the brass "relaxes. Therefore, as dubyam states, don't set the shoulder back more than a couple of thousandths of an inch. Test your resized brass (partial full-length resized) by ensuring that it chambers easily. Leave about 1/4 inch; size and check for ease of chambering. Set your die down a quarter turn or less and check again until the brass chambers easily. After about three or four times of partial full-length resizing, the brass may not chamber easily as the brass stretches. When that happens, set the shoulder back about 0.002 inches.
Antelope_Sniper
Handloader
- Jan 25, 2008
- 2,618
- 0
The only time I full lenth resize is if the load may be used in more then one rifle. Otherwise I size the way Dubyam described.
Divernhunter
Handloader
- Apr 1, 2009
- 806
- 167
I am going to speak for the other side of the coin. I full lenght size and get plenty of loads out of my brass. I also think for HUNTING ammo especially that it should be FL resized as to not have any potential trouble in the field. I have seen it happen and it is not fun to have it happen when you need the ammo to work in the field. I also know that nobody would ever let alittle dust/grit/dirt etc get into their firearm but if that happens and you have very tight fitting ammo it may not funtion when you need it to.
I actually try to use new brass for my hunting loads and practice fun shoot with reloaded brass in my big game rifles. In my varmit rifles I will use both new and reloaded brass as there are usually many more targets(squirrels,PD ) to shoot so if I have a problem with a round it is no big deal.
My 2 Cents
I actually try to use new brass for my hunting loads and practice fun shoot with reloaded brass in my big game rifles. In my varmit rifles I will use both new and reloaded brass as there are usually many more targets(squirrels,PD ) to shoot so if I have a problem with a round it is no big deal.
My 2 Cents
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,187
- 2,829
Size enough so your shell will fit snuggly in your chamber. Less wear and tear on the case and you do not have to anneal the brass to avoid split necks.
- Thread starter
- #7
rick smith
Handloader
- Apr 6, 2005
- 1,249
- 0
Trim them when the reach max.Rick.
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Guest
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I usually full length size new brass, fire it in the rifle it's intended for, either neck size or pfls, and then trim to uniform minimum spec. Occasionally I have to trim a little below as some brass shrinks when fired the first time, as it swells out to the chamber walls. Regardless, I trim to uniform, and not too much below the minimum spec.
Once I get a bunch of brass trimmed, I generally go through load workups if I still need to (after shooting through it all the first time, many times, load workups are done). Once I have a load for hunting, I'll make up 20-50 of the hunting load, in uniformly trimmed brass, and keep that as hunting ammo. All practice is done with the remaining brass, and one or two groups shot out of the hunting ammo to maintain confidence in it. Now, about every two years or so, if I have any hunting ammo that's not been fired, I run through it, too. Usually by that time, I'm ready to trim all my brass again anyway, so I get another batch of uniform hunting ammo made up, and repeat the cycle. I don't get a lot of brass stretch in most of my rifles, because I neck size or pfls, so trimming is not a huge deal for me.
Once I get a bunch of brass trimmed, I generally go through load workups if I still need to (after shooting through it all the first time, many times, load workups are done). Once I have a load for hunting, I'll make up 20-50 of the hunting load, in uniformly trimmed brass, and keep that as hunting ammo. All practice is done with the remaining brass, and one or two groups shot out of the hunting ammo to maintain confidence in it. Now, about every two years or so, if I have any hunting ammo that's not been fired, I run through it, too. Usually by that time, I'm ready to trim all my brass again anyway, so I get another batch of uniform hunting ammo made up, and repeat the cycle. I don't get a lot of brass stretch in most of my rifles, because I neck size or pfls, so trimming is not a huge deal for me.
- Thread starter
- #10
thanks Dubyam ,, your process pretty much explains what i was looking for,, thus far ive only fl sized and trimed to the book specs and i was always concernd about the amount of brass that i was trimming off each case over and over,,,,, im about to start reloading for my 270wsm and those cases are'nt cheap
Lot's of great replies here with some good info. I'll add my OPINION-as it is just that-my opinion.
I don't believe in PFLR with a F/L die. Think about the neck portion of the die. If you are not sinking the brass all the way up into the die, then you are only sizing a portion of the neck. Further, if you don't set the F/L die up the exact same way every time-you are not getting the same neck tension on the bullets on future loads, and you may be chasing your tail on accuracy. Further, even when you attempt to PFLR using a F/L die, you are still sizing a portion of the case body (outside diameter) which means that when that case is fired it will again stretch to meet the chamber wall. This works the brass more than is necessary. Also, do some reading on what expander balls in F/L sizing dies can do to concentricity. I avoid them because they have the ability to cause neck run-out.
I neck-size all of my brass until it needs to have the shoulder set back a couple thou for easy chambering. I know the exact measurement from the datum point on the shoulder to the case head, and have modified dies to bump the shoulder back when necessary. Further these dies have had the I/D modified so that when used to bump the shoulder back, they will only close the O/D of the case to .002" under my chamber size. Hand me a fired case from any source you like, and with my calipers & about 5 seconds I can tell you if that case will chamber in my gun. From fired cases, I record case neck measurements, body diameter measurements, and datum point on shoulder to case head measurements. Once you know this info, you can easily measure any case and know if it will chamber in your rifle.
I understand peoples concerns about dirt getting in the chamber, and having ammo that jams in the chamber while hunting in the field. To that I say, as long as that first shell seats safely in the chamber at the beginning of the hunt, I have no fear of any dirt getting in their once the hunt begins. Further, if you are concerned about your reloads jamming your gun once you are in the field-TEST THE ROUNDS IN YOUR GUN BEFORE YOU LEAVE FOR THE HUNT!
If you know your chamber measurements, and know what you are doing with your dies, you should have no fear about those rounds working once you are in the field. I have complete confidence in my reloads and never check them in my gun because I know at the time I'm working the cases in the dies that they are right. If you are not at a point in your reloading career (yes-this is a career!) then keep your gun out, and after sizing a piece of brass see if it chambers. If it does, then you know that case is now smaller than your chamber. If it does not, then adjust the die a little more and try again until you get that case to fit snugly in your chamber. From there, adjust the die a little bit more so that the round chambers easily with very little, if any, resistance. Record those settings as that is where you will want to keep the die for future sizing operations. The problem with this theory though is that you will have to start with a piece of brass that is larger than your chamber, to be able to work it slowly down until it fits. You may have to fire & reload a case 3, 4, 5 times until it finally becomes snug enough in your chamber to be useful in setting up your dies WITHOUT sizing it smaller than the chamber for those reloads. Otherwise, you could potentially be re-sizing brass smaller than necessary. Find some fired brass at your range and look for a piece that will not chamber (bolt stops going in before you can push the handle down). That is the piece you want to use to start the die adjustment process.
The Lee collet dies are worth their weight in gold. These are all that I use to neck-size.
I do believe in annealing, and I anneal every case I have before any re-sizing work. This may be extreme, but I can honestly say that I have NEVER had a case neck on any brass I've annealed & re-sized split. Annealing works if you want to invest the time & energy. Is it necessary? Only you can answer how long you want your brass to last.
Your last statement says that you "want reliable feeding at all times". Well, until you learn the measurements of your chamber, for now I'd F/L re-size as per the die instructions. DO NOT try PFLS at this time until you better understand how the die works the brass. Too great a chance that you will jam the gun up with one of your reloads, or leave a bullet in the chamber when trying to extract an unfired case. I've done both and it really was a pisser.
I don't believe in PFLR with a F/L die. Think about the neck portion of the die. If you are not sinking the brass all the way up into the die, then you are only sizing a portion of the neck. Further, if you don't set the F/L die up the exact same way every time-you are not getting the same neck tension on the bullets on future loads, and you may be chasing your tail on accuracy. Further, even when you attempt to PFLR using a F/L die, you are still sizing a portion of the case body (outside diameter) which means that when that case is fired it will again stretch to meet the chamber wall. This works the brass more than is necessary. Also, do some reading on what expander balls in F/L sizing dies can do to concentricity. I avoid them because they have the ability to cause neck run-out.
I neck-size all of my brass until it needs to have the shoulder set back a couple thou for easy chambering. I know the exact measurement from the datum point on the shoulder to the case head, and have modified dies to bump the shoulder back when necessary. Further these dies have had the I/D modified so that when used to bump the shoulder back, they will only close the O/D of the case to .002" under my chamber size. Hand me a fired case from any source you like, and with my calipers & about 5 seconds I can tell you if that case will chamber in my gun. From fired cases, I record case neck measurements, body diameter measurements, and datum point on shoulder to case head measurements. Once you know this info, you can easily measure any case and know if it will chamber in your rifle.
I understand peoples concerns about dirt getting in the chamber, and having ammo that jams in the chamber while hunting in the field. To that I say, as long as that first shell seats safely in the chamber at the beginning of the hunt, I have no fear of any dirt getting in their once the hunt begins. Further, if you are concerned about your reloads jamming your gun once you are in the field-TEST THE ROUNDS IN YOUR GUN BEFORE YOU LEAVE FOR THE HUNT!
If you know your chamber measurements, and know what you are doing with your dies, you should have no fear about those rounds working once you are in the field. I have complete confidence in my reloads and never check them in my gun because I know at the time I'm working the cases in the dies that they are right. If you are not at a point in your reloading career (yes-this is a career!) then keep your gun out, and after sizing a piece of brass see if it chambers. If it does, then you know that case is now smaller than your chamber. If it does not, then adjust the die a little more and try again until you get that case to fit snugly in your chamber. From there, adjust the die a little bit more so that the round chambers easily with very little, if any, resistance. Record those settings as that is where you will want to keep the die for future sizing operations. The problem with this theory though is that you will have to start with a piece of brass that is larger than your chamber, to be able to work it slowly down until it fits. You may have to fire & reload a case 3, 4, 5 times until it finally becomes snug enough in your chamber to be useful in setting up your dies WITHOUT sizing it smaller than the chamber for those reloads. Otherwise, you could potentially be re-sizing brass smaller than necessary. Find some fired brass at your range and look for a piece that will not chamber (bolt stops going in before you can push the handle down). That is the piece you want to use to start the die adjustment process.
The Lee collet dies are worth their weight in gold. These are all that I use to neck-size.
I do believe in annealing, and I anneal every case I have before any re-sizing work. This may be extreme, but I can honestly say that I have NEVER had a case neck on any brass I've annealed & re-sized split. Annealing works if you want to invest the time & energy. Is it necessary? Only you can answer how long you want your brass to last.
Your last statement says that you "want reliable feeding at all times". Well, until you learn the measurements of your chamber, for now I'd F/L re-size as per the die instructions. DO NOT try PFLS at this time until you better understand how the die works the brass. Too great a chance that you will jam the gun up with one of your reloads, or leave a bullet in the chamber when trying to extract an unfired case. I've done both and it really was a pisser.
G
Guest
Guest
While I applaud your meticulous measuring and record keeping with regard to your brass, I will argue that I can pfl-size my brass and size the entire neck while only bumping back the shoulder a tiny bit. How? Well, it has to do with how the die works and how the brass fits into the chamber. Let's consider what happens with a brand new piece of virgin brass. I full-length resize it before firing, to be sure things are consistent and that all my brass goes through as similar a lifecycle as possible. So, I fire a minimum spec piece of brass in my within spec chamber, and the shoulder is blown forward (with a little bit of case head stretch, but not too much because my headspace is proper), and the case is formed to my chamber, minus a little due to springback. Now, I take that piece of brass and run it up into my sizer only part way. I check the neck for the mark where it is sized to. I adjust the die to size down to the base of the neck. I then try to chamber the round, and low and behold, it's too tight. I can compare the measurement to the datum line on the shoulder and find the case body has been lengthened a smidge due to the effects of squeezing it down. But, the entire length of the neck has been sized. So then I adjust my die to bump the shoulder back a fuzz, to about .001-.002" shorter than my fired case dimension for shoulder length. And, I've still sized the whole neck.
Now, I will agree with you that it works the brass more than neck sizing, which I do for all my bolt guns. But I pfl size for my lever guns and my Browning BAR, and I end up with fully sized necks and consistent neck tension. My Win94 30-30WCF will knock out three shot groups in the 1.1-1.2" range pretty much on command, and occasionally will knock out some sub-1" groups. I'd say that's pretty good accuracy for the old lever gun. Of course, most of my bolt guns will outdo that by a noticeable margin, but that's due to a variety of things, not just neck sizing the brass.
Now, I will agree with you that it works the brass more than neck sizing, which I do for all my bolt guns. But I pfl size for my lever guns and my Browning BAR, and I end up with fully sized necks and consistent neck tension. My Win94 30-30WCF will knock out three shot groups in the 1.1-1.2" range pretty much on command, and occasionally will knock out some sub-1" groups. I'd say that's pretty good accuracy for the old lever gun. Of course, most of my bolt guns will outdo that by a noticeable margin, but that's due to a variety of things, not just neck sizing the brass.
Dubyam, while I agree it sounds like you have a firm plan in place for processing your brass, I think you may have missed the part where the OP might not have the experience that you or I have at this, and he might not understand exactly how it is we are doing what we are doing.
I'm hopeful your explanation gave the OP some further insight into how to use a F/L die to PFLS as you were very clear.
It will be up to the OP after testing both methods to see which way is best for his personal tastes. The OP does not state anything about a lever gun of the 2 calibers he mentions, so I'll assume he has bolt guns. You agree that you neck-size only for bolt guns, and I still stick with my original belief that neck-sizing is the BEST way to go, and that using a F/L die to PFLS should be avoided when possible. If it matters, I only neck-size for my lever gun (30-30) as well, and just like my bolt guns, I can measure a piece of brass and tell you immediately if it will need sizing to fit the chamber. I rarely have to FLS brass for my 30-30. Of course, I only fire lighter loads-never anything near maximum so that has to be taken into consideration.
I'm not disagreeing with you dubyam about how you PFLS your brass because your process of PFLS is the correct way when using F/L dies. I'm just not happy with the entire concept of using a F/L die in this manner because even when done right-you still are sizing the O/D of the case when it is not necessary, and you are potentially pulling the neck off-center with the expander ball. The sizing of the O/D of the case can be over-come by modifying the inside of the die to more closely match the chamber of your gun-if you choose to modify your die. The problems with neck run-out can be over-come by insuring that the expander ball is always centered, and not bent, or cocked to one side. Even brand new dies I've found will introduce neck run-out problems because the expander is not dead-center inside the die. In this regard, by design, the Lee collet die is FAR SUPERIOR TO ANY DIE WITH AN EXPANDER BALL.
Is this to say that a F/L die that causes induces neck run-out in addition to what is already present in the brass from time of manufacture will make that big a difference when the rounds will be used only for hunting? Until the OP does a side by side comparison only he will know. For me, I want, no, I EXPECT, the absolute best accuracy possible from my rifle rounds and I'll go to whatever extreme necessary to insure that I am doing my part.
I think the OP has been given some things to think about in regards to how to process his brass. I just hope we have not confused him further.
I still think that reloaders should learn early on how to measure their chambers by using the correct tools, or simply by measuring brass fired in those chambers. Doing so cuts the learning curve sharply and they can become more proficient at processing/prepping brass at the press before they hit the field or firing range and find their brass jams the gun.
Before I learned to measure my chambers, I had to purchase a kinetic bullet puller, and used that dang thing quite a bit I'll admit. Now that I know my chamber measurements, a round is never completed until the brass is a perfect match for the chamber. My RCBS kinectic puller is gathering dust thankfully. I was not bragging in the first post about knowing my chamber measurements, and if it came across that way-I apologize as it was not my intent to come across as a prick. I was simply making the point that I learned some hard lessons-jammed gun on a hunting trip when I needed a follow up shot on a hog, and another time at the range when they called a cease-fire for a target change and I tried to unload the gun and left a bullet jammed in the rifling and filled my chamber & magazine with gun-powder-as a result of NOT KNOWING my chamber measurements and using a F/L die at that time to PFLS without understanding how to measure my brass.
If I were to take someone under my wing for reloading training, the first thing I would start with AFTER having them read "The ABC's Of Reloading" would be measuring chambers, measuring their brass, and then setting up their dies based on those measurements. This in no way discounts the other important aspects of reloading. Just an addition to?
Romex2121-are you still with us?
I'm hopeful your explanation gave the OP some further insight into how to use a F/L die to PFLS as you were very clear.
It will be up to the OP after testing both methods to see which way is best for his personal tastes. The OP does not state anything about a lever gun of the 2 calibers he mentions, so I'll assume he has bolt guns. You agree that you neck-size only for bolt guns, and I still stick with my original belief that neck-sizing is the BEST way to go, and that using a F/L die to PFLS should be avoided when possible. If it matters, I only neck-size for my lever gun (30-30) as well, and just like my bolt guns, I can measure a piece of brass and tell you immediately if it will need sizing to fit the chamber. I rarely have to FLS brass for my 30-30. Of course, I only fire lighter loads-never anything near maximum so that has to be taken into consideration.
I'm not disagreeing with you dubyam about how you PFLS your brass because your process of PFLS is the correct way when using F/L dies. I'm just not happy with the entire concept of using a F/L die in this manner because even when done right-you still are sizing the O/D of the case when it is not necessary, and you are potentially pulling the neck off-center with the expander ball. The sizing of the O/D of the case can be over-come by modifying the inside of the die to more closely match the chamber of your gun-if you choose to modify your die. The problems with neck run-out can be over-come by insuring that the expander ball is always centered, and not bent, or cocked to one side. Even brand new dies I've found will introduce neck run-out problems because the expander is not dead-center inside the die. In this regard, by design, the Lee collet die is FAR SUPERIOR TO ANY DIE WITH AN EXPANDER BALL.
Is this to say that a F/L die that causes induces neck run-out in addition to what is already present in the brass from time of manufacture will make that big a difference when the rounds will be used only for hunting? Until the OP does a side by side comparison only he will know. For me, I want, no, I EXPECT, the absolute best accuracy possible from my rifle rounds and I'll go to whatever extreme necessary to insure that I am doing my part.
I think the OP has been given some things to think about in regards to how to process his brass. I just hope we have not confused him further.
I still think that reloaders should learn early on how to measure their chambers by using the correct tools, or simply by measuring brass fired in those chambers. Doing so cuts the learning curve sharply and they can become more proficient at processing/prepping brass at the press before they hit the field or firing range and find their brass jams the gun.
Before I learned to measure my chambers, I had to purchase a kinetic bullet puller, and used that dang thing quite a bit I'll admit. Now that I know my chamber measurements, a round is never completed until the brass is a perfect match for the chamber. My RCBS kinectic puller is gathering dust thankfully. I was not bragging in the first post about knowing my chamber measurements, and if it came across that way-I apologize as it was not my intent to come across as a prick. I was simply making the point that I learned some hard lessons-jammed gun on a hunting trip when I needed a follow up shot on a hog, and another time at the range when they called a cease-fire for a target change and I tried to unload the gun and left a bullet jammed in the rifling and filled my chamber & magazine with gun-powder-as a result of NOT KNOWING my chamber measurements and using a F/L die at that time to PFLS without understanding how to measure my brass.
If I were to take someone under my wing for reloading training, the first thing I would start with AFTER having them read "The ABC's Of Reloading" would be measuring chambers, measuring their brass, and then setting up their dies based on those measurements. This in no way discounts the other important aspects of reloading. Just an addition to?
Romex2121-are you still with us?
G
Guest
Guest
Kawabuggy, I agree with just about all of what you wrote. I do respectfully disagree on the issue of pfl sizing overworking the brass, as I've not had issues with that in literally hundreds of pieces of brass loaded five to seven times each in many instances. But that's more complex than the original poster was intending, I believe.
I do pfl size for some bolt guns, when I don't have a neck die, or when I've used a neck die and ended up with feeding problems. Right now I'm pfl sizing for a 300Wby because it belongs to a friend of mine, and I'm working on it to determine which part of the equation can't shoot - the gun, or the friend. So far, the gun is slinging 180gr bullets into 1-1.5" at 100yds, so I'm thinking it's a recoil issue or a noise flinch, but that's another story entirely. Why do I pfl size for it? Because my friend doesn't want to pony up for the neck die, and I don't own a suitable neck die in .308cal. Is it ideal? Maybe not, but I suspect it's at least 99.99% as good as neck sizing, based on my experience.
I do agree that understanding what happens to brass during firing and resizing and how the two are interrelated is a key part of becoming a proficient handloader, though. Misunderstanding the relationship between your chamber and your brass is an issue that will keep a handloader from being consistently accurate and producing the best ammo for his or her rifles.
Great points you make, sir, and I've enjoyed the subject. I believe Romex is keeping up on this, but if not, I'm sure he'll ask some more questions.
I do pfl size for some bolt guns, when I don't have a neck die, or when I've used a neck die and ended up with feeding problems. Right now I'm pfl sizing for a 300Wby because it belongs to a friend of mine, and I'm working on it to determine which part of the equation can't shoot - the gun, or the friend. So far, the gun is slinging 180gr bullets into 1-1.5" at 100yds, so I'm thinking it's a recoil issue or a noise flinch, but that's another story entirely. Why do I pfl size for it? Because my friend doesn't want to pony up for the neck die, and I don't own a suitable neck die in .308cal. Is it ideal? Maybe not, but I suspect it's at least 99.99% as good as neck sizing, based on my experience.
I do agree that understanding what happens to brass during firing and resizing and how the two are interrelated is a key part of becoming a proficient handloader, though. Misunderstanding the relationship between your chamber and your brass is an issue that will keep a handloader from being consistently accurate and producing the best ammo for his or her rifles.
Great points you make, sir, and I've enjoyed the subject. I believe Romex is keeping up on this, but if not, I'm sure he'll ask some more questions.
rick smith
Handloader
- Apr 6, 2005
- 1,249
- 0
Expander balls can be dealt with by polishing them to a mirror finish and controlling their size. I try not to use expander balls whenever possible, Redding body die and bushing neck die without an expander. If I have to use an expander ball, after sizing and polishing, I lock it in place as the case is withdrawn from the die and has pressure against the inside of the neck. Using a FL die to PFL will size all but the but the last few thousants if that on a case neck. I don't set a body die or FL die until the cases get snug to chambering or extraction, normally 4-6 firings with a new case.Rick.
Rick makes good points on expander balls. If you use a die that has them, keep them clean and free of debris or they can scratch the inside of the case mouth, and also polish them to let them slide through the case mouth easier. It's easy to achieve more bullet grip/tension as well by polishing the ball until it's a tad smaller in diameter too. You can chuck them in a drill, and then spin them inside 600 grit paper to polish them.
Dubyam-what part of the country are you in? If you're close-I'd like like to shoot with you someday.
Dubyam-what part of the country are you in? If you're close-I'd like like to shoot with you someday.
G
Guest
Guest
I'm in north Alabama - Huntsville to be exact. Where are you located, Kawabuggy?
Well, I'm just a hop, skip and a little jump due west of you in Houston, TX!
I have family that lives in Mobile, Alabama. Spent many summers during my youth hunting in Alabama, and fishing in Dolphin Island. There was a big pier there that had speckled trout running every summer and we would literally fill 5 large coolers full of fish. Beautiful country Alabama is.
Have not been back since I was a kid though. When I get ready to leave Houston, 'Bama's on my short list of places to live.
I have family that lives in Mobile, Alabama. Spent many summers during my youth hunting in Alabama, and fishing in Dolphin Island. There was a big pier there that had speckled trout running every summer and we would literally fill 5 large coolers full of fish. Beautiful country Alabama is.
Have not been back since I was a kid though. When I get ready to leave Houston, 'Bama's on my short list of places to live.
