Sporter barrels- What can you REALLY expect?

[Blaine]

If you browse the forums frequently, you can read all sorts of accounts about the accuracy folks are getting from their favorite guns. Groups of under .20" at 100 yards and under 2" @ 500 yards etc. yada,yada,yada. A lot of these accounts are about "target" or "custom" guns with barrels the size of a rake handle and tuned by the leading gunsmiths to eek out every last .01" of group size. While this makes interesting reading, I wonder what us "average" folks are getting for accuracy from our "sporter" barrel guns with no special "tuning" or other alterations. I love to shoot my guns, because I like to see how small I can make those groups in preparation for my REAL passion.....hunting. During load development I use sand bags and a 100 yard range to test my latest "recipes" to see how they fare. Shooting over a "Chrony" shows me what the load is capable of, but will my gun (and I ) be able to deliver? My goal is to get each gun to shoot consistently under an inch, the more under an inch, the better. I have a 20 year old Savage (270 Win) that has seen over 3000 rounds shoved through her, and I can still expect 5 shot groups under .75" with it if I do my part. I just bought a Stevens 200 in 308Win that has given me a 5 shot-group of 1" with a "best 4" group of ....believe it or not....... .092" center to center. Although I have not been able to duplicate that, I know that the gun can do it.

Bottom line time.........What do you reasonably expect from your "sporter" weight hunting guns, and what would you consider unacceptable performance for hunting situations? I realize that the range one expects to encounter game has a lot to do with that, but if you thought you might possibly have an opportunity at a 150-200 yard shot, would you feel comfortable about taking it with your gun/load?

A lot of folks consider 1" MOA to be the "Holy Grail" of hunting rifles. Do you consider this to be realistic, or what do you "shoot" for? (pun intended) :lol: Do you think that 1" MOA is not good enough?

Blaine

 

[Savage99]

If a big game rifle puts the first shot withing 2" of where I aimed at 200 yds I call that good. If it makes a 2" or smaller group thats good too.

I require twice that accuracy or more from varmniters.

Match rifles only have to shoot 1/2 moa and find the target with the first sighter.

 

[Charlie-NY]

I really don't expect too much from a factory rifle. Under 1.5" is common with the better rifles shooting under 1" with prefered loads.

I have often read about guys who claimed that their factory rifle shot under .5" @ 100yds. That's a pretty tall order and of all the (factory) rifles that I have ownede, none of them have shot groups that tight with any regularity. :-:-:-:- That is until recently. I bought a Rem 70 LSS in 300 RUM. This rifle shoots right at 1" @ 200yds with the very first handload tested. I have been able to repeat these tight groups many times.

Sometimes you just get an exceptionally straight shooting factory rifle but they are far and few in between.

 

[Ol` Joe]

I look for groups of 3/4 - 1" for 5rds with factory rifles. I usually have the triggers worked on and bedded if it appears needed. This is letting the barrel remain cool and shooting with conditions that are conductive to good groups, no wind, early mornig sun, ect.
Rifles that have been rebarreled, and done over by a smith should shoot notably better depending on rifle and cartridge. Say a quarter inch tighter or so. I wouldn`t expect a 8 lb 300 mag to shoot as tight as a 12 lb 6mm BR for example.

 

[7mmfan]

For me as a serious big game gun, a gun has to produce at least a 2 inch group at 300 yards otherwise it's sold off. Of course not every gun will do this, but I've seen many different brands both expensive and inexpensive accomplish this. For example, I've seen at least a half dozen Sako 75s, a couple of Ruger #1s, a couple of Remington 700s, and an even an O3A3 produce this result. More importantly, I've probably seen 20-30 or so rifles not produce this level of accuracy. Some of these rifles even came out of custom builders with custom barrels and a couple came out of Remington's Custom Shop. Now, I hunt primarily out West, but I grew up in the East and back there a gun had to shoot MOA out to 200 yards or it got solf off.

Brad

 

[Northwoods Hunter]

Read my post under..."I like Remington again".... I agree with 7mmFan and shoot mostly in the Midwest.

I am a reloader and have never had a "heavy bbl" or custom rifle...

My Remington CDL and new Mtn Rifle are both "Sporters" and have already shot under 0.50 MOA...I have had factory Tikka and Sakos shoot as tight as 0.017" MOA for a 3 shot 100yd group... no glass bedding, aftermarket addons etc...

Personally I have sold ,traded, several rifles that wouldn't shoot under MOA... When you pay 500$ to 1000$ on a rifle it SHOULD shoot MOA. MOA is a bare minimum expectation...IMHO....If it doesn't shoot under MOA...its GONE.

Almost EVERY rifle I have ever bought required a "trigger" job. That normally tightens groups immensely....

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

I have put quite a few rounds through several factory rifles. I have worked with mostly rugers, but have been buying remingtons lately. I have a winchester sporter in 25-06 that shot a .043" 3 shot group at 100 yards off the bench. I also have a remington adl in .222 rem that has shot several .1's at 100 yards for 3 shots as well. My remington 700 bdl 270 will put 3 150g sgk's into .5" at 100 yards. My 300 RUM remington 700 LSS has several loads that shoot .5" at 100 yards. Now for longer ranges, I have different expectations for what I"m hunting. I think that for big game, I like 2" 3 shot groups at 300 yards as well, but will suffice for 2.5". At 500 yards, I like 4" groups. At 800 yards MOA will get the job done. For coyotes, all the more accurate the better. Now all I have ever done with factory rifles was get the trigger down to about 2.5# and work up reloads. I never have glass bedded or free floated any barrels, except for my 300 RUM after about 500 rounds. All 3 brands, remington, ruger, and winchester have given me the accuracy I think is expectable from a factory stick and good reloads, under good conditions.

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

Forgot to say that I have also had all 3 brands not meet my expectations, and including the 1 and only savage I ever bought in 270 wsm. It would not shoot worth a hoot for a savage as far as everyone elses experiences go, but when you get a bad one the first time, its hard to wanna buy one again.

 

[JD338]

I am a Remington guy. Every one I have owned has been able to shoot well under MOA with the right handload. I even had a M742 Carbine in 30-06 that would shoot under 1 inch!
I have several that will shoot under .5", again with the right handloads.
With Remington, you just need a trigger job and you will be on your way to a good shooting rifle. Now if they will just get rid of the damn J lock....

JD338

 

[Guy Miner]

:grin: They did!

The j-lock was present on the 700 CDL I bought last year, but on the 700 CDL I picked up new a couple of months ago - there was NO j-lock! :grin:

 

[JD338]

I thought I heard somewhere that the J lock was gone but I wasn't sure.

That is GREAT news, one of the better things that Remington has done!

JD338

 

[Bruce Mc]

The main thing I look for in a "sporter" rifle for hunting is consistency. If it doesn't shoot the same under all conditions then its not gonna stay in my closet. When I find a load that shoots good I put it through the long course. I shoot the load over a period of several weeks or even months leading up to the hunting season. Different times of days, different places if possible. I'll shoot sixty or so shots in three shot groups over this period of time and keep records of the shot coordinates and of the chronographed velocities. At the end of the test the rifle should have a consistent group and point of impact as well as velocity. My current load for my 7mm rem mag (I won't mention the bullet since its not a Nosler) over the course of 60 rounds grouped a little over an inch. Several of the three shot groups were around a half inch. Thats what I expect of my "sporter" rifles.

 

[FOTIS]

My personal best. .675" at 300 yards. Same load did .292" at 100 yards
300 RUM SAKO 75 Stainless Synthetic (stock rifle)
200 grain AccuBond retumbo and 3175fps.

Its twin a SAKO 75 in 7mm RUM will put 3 shots at 1/2" and 4 shots under .68" no problem at 100 yards. This is with 160 gr accubonds at 3205 fps with Retumbo.

My 416 WBY mag Classicmark II will do this:

http://gsgroup.co.za/fotis.html

It will also launch 300 gr Barnes X at 3150 fps and shout under .5" at 100 yds. All of these have been verified time and time again.

 

[sledder]

The majority of barrels aren't even broke in,they simply aren't shot enough.

In a hunting weight rifle,the factory barrel will usually group an inch or under. With a good trigger job as a minimum. A little load development. It's simply not that tough to get a factory barrel to shoot.

The biggest problem i see, is guys that can't shoot to save their ass and blaming the rifle for it.

Sure theres the occasional factory barrel that will never be good,but theres plenty of custom barrels that are junk also.

 

[Guy Miner]

Blaine - back to your original post - a 150 - 200 yard shot is sort of on the short side around here. Wide open country. I nailed a decent mulie buck at about 125 last year, but that was less than half as far as the doe my youngest son clobbered the year before.

With sporter barrels I rarely shoot a 5-shot group. Three shots is plenty for me to see how the sporter barrel is shooting for hunting conditions. Also keeps the slim sporter barrel from heating up. I like to see my hunting rifles, with factory sporter barrels, at or under an inch at 100 yards. Having access to a nice 600 yard rifle range, I also test them at 200 and 300 yards routinely, and sometimes all the way to 600 yards. Not all rifles that shoot a one-inch group at 100 yards will also shoot a three-inch group at 300 yards. It's always interesting seeing what a rifle will really do... My kids and I hunt primarily with Remington 700's, topped by Leupold scopes. We haven't had any trouble keeping their accuracy sub MOA out to 300 yards. Makes for a confidence builder when we're trying for a longish shot.

Over the years I've found that Noslers Ballistic Tip bullets often rival their match bullets, and competitors match bullets for accuracy.

Normally I only shoot my custom rifles w/match barrels at 600 yards. Love the 600 yard prone stage of the NRA match course! But that's a different kind of rifle, a different budget, and higher expectations...

Regards, Guy

 

[Guy Miner]

:grin: Pop - with the way that SAKO of yours shoots, you ought to bring it to one of our matches!

We hold two here at the "North Central Washington Gun Club" that might be of interest to you:

1) Every spring we have the annual "One-Shot Firearms/Jim's Plumbing" match, named for the two outfits that sponsor it. Great match, informal, and a lot of fun. A fellow with a good shooting hunting rifle can do just as well or better than a guy with a full custom target rifle. It's generally shot at 300 - 600 yards, although this year we had some exploding targets at about 100 yards as well. Bowling pins at a quarter mile are a hoot! Then there's the 600 yard line, where we're expected to shoot from prone/bipod (or other rest) as well as sitting and standing. Yes, 600 yards standing... It's a fun match, with a wild game chili feed in the middle of it.

2) Every October we hold a two-day, 600 yard prone "any rifle/any sight" match. Three strings of 20 shots for score daily, as well as a couple of sighters before each string. This is an official NRA match. We allow both conventional prone shooters (sling supported) as well as "F-class" shooters who use a bipod or a rifle rest to support their rifles. We see a lot of .308's at this match, although everything from 6mmBR through .338 Lapua Mags have shown up and done well. It's a Pacific Northwest classic, and a lot of guys make quite a drive to compete in it.

With the way that SAKO of yours shoots... I suspect you would do very well at either of these matches, and have a lot of fun too!

Regards, Guy

 

[Caine]

I have shoot som rifels im my time, most shoot 1,5" ore better when the shooter dos his jobb. But to shoot consistant under 1" with a hunting style rifle you need to be a good shoot, have the rigth wether and ammo. My best hunting rifle shoots groops down to 1/4 moa but it si hard to "take" rekyl and to have the same presure in the gun. I do have a "sporter" in 6mm ppc tigth neck and the same come to play there, the wrong presure to the back of the gun and the groops open up by 50% ore more.
But i`m now happy fi i can hit a 4inc plate at 300m at first shoot whit hunting ammo and not to bad wind.
But are stil able to shoot 5 shoot groops like this at 100m 8)

 

[gmsemel]

Well I have an 6.5 x 55 Ruger MK-II that I bought the first year they chambered that round. It shot 2 inch groups with 140 Nosler Partitions that Federal was loading back then. I had a smith do a bedding job and replaced the trigger with a Canjar. The smith lapped the rings for me and the bolt lugs. Shot the same load well under an inch most of the time and a good bunch of the time like the group above. Would dump a whole box of 156 gr Norma loads into and inch square with room to spare.If the barrel is reasonably good, most are and if the trigger and bedding is right then it becomes a question of how good you see and finding the right load . That Ruger cost me less than 800 bucks even with the smith work and scope. It shoots about as well as an Ultra light Arms M-24 that I have in the same chambering. If a rifle dose not shoot, have it bedded, maybe recrowned and the trigger for a good let off. If that dose not work, then go have a good smith install a good barrel. Also chamber or choose an easy shooting cartridge or one that has a track record for accuracy with out to much fuss.

 

[captdavid]

I've often wondered about these claims for basic sporting rifles that cost under $1000 and only have simple modifications such as trigger jobs and bedding. I see many clain sub 1/2" groups. I wonder if these are three or five shot. I also wonder how many would take this bet, using sand bags/rests, not vises. Shoot ten, three shot groups at 200yds. For every group one inch or under I'll pay them $100, for every group over one inch they'll pay me $100. Not a challange, just wondering. capt david

 

[Caine]

I've often wondered about these claims for basic sporting rifles that cost under $1000 and only have simple modifications such as trigger jobs and bedding. I see many clain sub 1/2" groups. I wonder if these are three or five shot. I also wonder how many would take this bet, using sand bags/rests, not vises. Shoot ten, three shot groups at 200yds. For every group one inch or under I'll pay them $100, for every group over one inch they'll pay me $100. Not a challange, just wondering. capt david

I thinke you probably be alone at that part of the range :twisted: