The Esoteric .308 Winchester

[Tom1911]

I really do ot know how it happened, but I was transformed from a magnum hunter to a man of practical pursuits. When I first got acquainted with hunting, I thought "old timers" who viewed with skepticism the high velocity magnums were remnants of a bygone era. I mean, why in god's name would I want even an '06 when I could have a 7MM Rem Mag that would shoot six country miles? What was the practical use of a 7MM Mauser? Didn't these guys know about the .270 Winchester?

Over a decade ago a new hunter to our group showed up at the range prior to deer season with a fancy Browing BLR in .308 Winchester. I thought to myself what a fool he was for shelling out that kind of dough for a rifle chambered for an enemic cartridge. I hoped he wouldn't see any deer larger than a fork for fear he didn't have enough gun.

I got to talkin' to this guy, trying to explain to him the merits of my 7MM Rem Mag, a real western big game rifle. He listened politely while assuring me he had all he needed to hunt in the western USA.

He got me to thinkin' about all those high dollar rifles chambered in .308 Win. Why would hunters spend that kind of money and receive in exchange a rifle chambered in .308 Winchester? Were there really that many stupid hunters...or...was I, well: are you gonna make me write the noun?

Anyway, I got to researchin' this cartridge because I was lookin' to buy a lightweight mountain rifle, and I just couln't find anything disparaging. I kept reading articles that detailed superb accuracy with ample lethality for all North American big game. More and more I read about how there was no practical difference between it and the venerable '06 with bullets up to 200 grains. Since I know of no one out west who hunts with bullets heavier than 180 grains, it was easy to conclude the .308 Win and '06 were virtually equal. But with the former I could expect greater accuracy in a short action rifle. How could I go wrong?

Has anyone else experience a similar epiphany? Years ago I wouldn't have given a spent 7MM Rem Mag case for a .308 Win rifle. Now I would not part with my Stainless Featherweight in .308 Win for anything chambered in a mega magnum. It is just that good a cartridge. :grin:


Take care,

Tom

 

[700 bdl]

There's a fella that hunts with the group I'm in that uses a 308 760 rem. He uses 180 gr. round nose core-lokt's. When he shoots he kills. It's almost automatic.

 

[jdmason480]

Very interesting post, Tom. And, it fits with my experience quite well. I've hunted New Mexico my whole life progressing at age 15 from an old Model 94 30-30 to a 7mmremmag. My dad hunted with a Model 88 .308 Winchester for about 50 years. With my dad's declining eyesight and fine muscle control, I've inherited the old .308 and last year bought a 7mmSTW.

A new hunting acquaintance recently moved to AZ from Louisiana and brought with him a Browing BAR .308. The first hunt he planned on joining us on was antelope in eastern NM. He is used to 100-150 yd shots in the Louisiana woods and I was concerned about his ability to reach out 300+ on an antelope out on the plains particularly a 180gr projectile which I perceive as dropping like a rock past 200yds. He didn't end up joining us as he suffered a heart attack two weeks prior to the hunt. But, he did make it out on a elk hunt in northern NM last December when he killed an elk a 336 yds with the .308 and 165 gr Hornady "Light Magnum".

Then, he got a wild hair that he wanted a bolt action rifle to improve his accuracy over the automatic BAR and went to a gun shop that had a rifle he liked chambered in .270 and he bought it in the spot. I thought to myself "He's got to be kidding! If you're buying a gun to hunt out West and could buy anything, why a .270 instead of a magnum .284?" I have to admit that I still believe he could have chosen better.

But, then there's the .308. His elk went down at 336 yds as quickily as the one I shot at 160 yds with my STW. And, in all of my hunting in the West, I'd guess that my average shooting distance is about 225-250 yds from antelope to deer to elk--certainly well within the effective range of almost any modern rifle cartridge. So, what's the difference?

To me, it's about confidence in your weapon pure and simple. I feel confident in both my 7mmremmag and STW and that their flat trajectory gives me a slight edge at distance. I could likely build my confidence in a .308 by just shooting it more often at the range. I think 90% of making that clean kill shot is confidence rather than physics. Another example: we all tout the ballistics of an AB or BT over the Partition even though the Nosler site reports that the trajectory difference is equivalent to a 10 yard yardage miscalculation at 400 yds. Interesting.

Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful post and the opportunity to respond.

jd

 

[roysclockgun]

When I read Tom's post, concerning the broad application for the .308Win, I thought of all the times that I have been involved in the "how many different calibers do I need to be ready for any hunt in the world?" For many who would name three or four calibers to complete a basic battery of hunting rifles, the .308Win would be among them. However, a lot of others would substitute another caliber for the .308Win and not be wrong. As most of us know, there really is no "Wrong" in what we use on game, provided our choice of cartridge kills humanely and suits our individual tastes. Probably peer pressure, more than any other single issue causes riflemen to run from one caliber to the next, up and down the power curve. Tom wrote: "I kept reading articles that detailed superb accuracy with ample lethality for all North American big game." In this instance, he's speaking of the .308Win, but couldn't we substitute many cartridges and make the same claim? We simply have a vast array of cartridges from which to choose, and many overlap, in terms of what they can do. When I had my place in Md. I had a two hundred yard range set up. A neighbor perhaps then in his 40s came each year to re-test his old sporterized Mauser in 30-06, before going hunting our west for elk with his friends. Each year, he killed game with the old 30-06 Mauser rifle. This was in the 1960s. Around the end of that decade, he came to shoot with a new rifle in 300WbyMag. I asked him why he left the 30-06 behind and he said he simply got tired of being ribbed by his Magnum toting buddies for being "under-gunned". You could insert .308Win in my story, the point is the same.

 

[Tom1911]

roy,

You're absolutely correct in that most big game cartridges are sufficient for all North American big game. I remember reading a story of a killer grizzly that was plaguing an area in Canada during the Great Depression era. A hunter went out looking for it carrying a .303 British. I think the bear stalked and killed the hunter w/o a shot being fired. But the point is the .303 British was at one time thought to be a big gun.

I have reverence for many of the magnum cartridges, but I think that for the most part they are unnecessary for 90%> of all North American big game hunting. I remember meeting a Wyoming resident while hunting the Star Valley a half dozen years ago. He was using a Model 700 BDL in 7MM Rem Mag because his son bought it for him. But he said that his .308 Win had been his go to gun that caused his garage to be full up with ungulate antlers! Another Wyoming hunter told me his .308 Winchester was the rifle he used to kill his moose. BTW, I was using my 7MM Rem Mag on that hunt, and two years following my conversation with that moose hunter I bought my .308 Winchester for my mountain rifle.

Y'know, when the short magnums were intoduced, I contemplated getting a .300 RSM a .300 WSM...until I did the math. I figured that by the time I cut the barrel of any such rifle down to a mountain ready 22", I might gain 100 FPS over my .308 Win, certainly not enough to compensate for excessive blast, more expensive ammo, and reduced accuracy. No thanks, I'll keep my .308 Win, thank you very much. :wink:

As I have grown wiser, I can see why so many expensive rifles are chambered for .308 Win. I ain't so dumb anymore, Maynard! :grin:

Since I doubt I'll be able to find a Featherweight for my son's first deer rifle, I'm thinking I'll get him either a Remington 7400 or BAR in .308 Win. I am thinking that with reduced velocity loads in a semiauto rifle, the recoil will not be too much a problem. What do you think? I know a bolt will be easier for him to use, but a semiauto using reduced velocity loads would do wonders for his confidence. Or would it be more wise to get him a bolt action hope for the best? I do reload, so maybe a very light 150 grain handload in a bolt action might work.


Take care,

Tom

 

[roysclockgun]

Tom wrote: "Since I doubt I'll be able to find a Featherweight for my son's first deer rifle, I'm thinking I'll get him either a Remington 7400 or BAR in .308 Win."

Since you asked, my opinion would be to get him a slide action Rem 7600 in .308Win. or one of the rotating bolt lever actions, like Browning markets. Here are my reasons: Young people seem to do better when they must be pro-active during the learning process. One is less involved when using a semi-auto. We have all watched countless action movies where someone carrying a firearm racks the bolt, time after time. There is something exciting about that sound of racking that bolt. The relationship twixt a rifleman and his rifle just seems to become more intimate in direct proportion to how pro-active the rifleman needs to be with his rifle. As with a car having auto-trans. some the thrill of running through the gears is lost. Then, there is the issue of positive follow-up shots. Certainly the percentage of failures to cycle in a modern, well maintained semi are low, but a slide action in the hands of someone trained in proper use, would never experience a failure to cycle when using a slide action. Also, as I have mentioned before, I do not know how many states do not allow the use of a semi, but Pa. is one of them, so why limit his use of the rifle you give him. Lastly, I am not that familiar with modern semis and what lubes are recommended, but I would not like to be carrying a semi when hunting in a very cold place where steel can and does freeze to steel. With a manually operated bolt one could regularly check the stiffness of the action and remedy a problem much easier with a manually operated bolt then with a semi.
I can only think of one hunt on which I am glad that I had my 7mmRemMag due to the 408 yd shot that was called for. In over 50 years of toting around hi-powered rifles, the slide action or lever action carbine, properly set up with scope, would have done the job in fine style.
Given what we know about bullet flight, I might think about a 7mm bullet over the .30cal. But that is for another question!

 

[Reloder28]

My go-to gun has been my 280 Remington. All I ever felt when I settled the crosshairs on the animal was, "Gee, the work is about to start and the fun is over."

I don't even know what velocity my cheap Remington Express 150 gr Core-Lokt's are doing but I suspect I'd start handloading it if I did know. I bought it to be a go-to rifle when all my other fancy custom scrap iron is in the shop for whatever reason. The 280 delivers just like the mailman. Meat in the freezer and trophies on the walls.

Confidence in your shooting iron is the priority. For me, I choose the 7mm Wby Mag. It was love at first trigger squeeze. I now have two confident meat gitters.

 

[longwinters]

I bought son Number 1 a Tikka (pre T-3) in 243. It worked very well for him. Bought son Number 2 a Rem LSS Mtn in 7m-08. Loaded it with 120 Ballistic Tips and loaded it on the light side. If I was going to do it all over again I would have bought 2 of the 7m-08 rifles (maybe in a different rifle). The oldest, after a couple of years, wanted to move up in caliber and chose a 30-06. When I asked the younger son if he wanted to move up in caliber he said "why" this rifle does everything I will ever need it to do (which means whitetail and antelope). I now load it up with 140 grain Accubonds and can go to Partitions if necessary. I just don't know how you can beat the 7m-08 for a great beginner caliber, that could last a lifetime.

Long

 

[Reloder28]

Longwinters,

I would agree. Had my daughter wanted a lesser round, I would have put her behind a 7/08. She started out shooting my 280 JDJ with 66 gr powder charges. Her last hunts found her carrying the 280 Remignton. SHe loves it and I love it that she likes it. It is an awesome weapon and she took to it like ducks to water.

Many a grown man hunts with the 7/08 so your son was correct. May be all he'll ever need.

 

[elkslayer308]

I have a Savage 99e in 308 WInchester that my father gave me in 2001, he had hunted with it since 1978 as a present from my mother for their anniversary. It wears a little old 4x bushnell from about the same vintage maybe earlier. I shoot 180 gr roundnoses and Corelokts in it I pulled down on a cow last fall at 200 yards and squeezed off a shot laying over a stump. She was broadside and the 180 grain bullet broke both shoulders and down she went. Although it didnt exit the offside, it downed her and she lay there. Unfortunately she was still alive and so i shot her in the head again at about 40 yards since i couldnt get in close enough for any bloodletting of the carotid artery. I have shot two elk with that gun and with only 3 shots. Also I have a 30-06 and i have killed the heck out of deer and elk with it, and really cant tell any difference in killing power between the two. My 06 is a Winchester 70 and wears a 3x9 is the only real difference. Anyone who says the 308 cant kill anything is welcome to stand out in front of my 100 yard board anytime.

 

[Savage99]

Excellent post by Tom 1911 and others.

I started big game hunting in 1953 and the 30-06 ruled then. Few had heard of the 308 yet and it was either the 06, 30-30 or some used the 270. I happened to come upon a 99 in 358 back in the 60's and that was my personal cartridge. It worked well but finally I wanted a lightweight gun and bought a Kimber Montana in 308.

This rifle, in my opinion, is a landmark rifle of this decade. The 308 is just right.

There was a good thread on this on 24hr and also John Barness wrote a article on the 308 in Handloader. I have all the magnums just about and now I will hunt with the 308.

 

[Reloder28]

Now ya'll have me feeling guilty that I do not own one. It was my first original pick when I bought my first rifle. I thought then that it was a great choice. I still do but I do not currently own one. A long time ago I decided that I wanted to hunt, general purpose, with a 150 gr bullet. The 277 150's were too long, the 308 150's were too short so I bought 280 & settled on a do-all load with a 150 gr PT.

Got an itch for a 7mm Wby last year and so I now pack them both on every trip. Since I shoot an Encore, wagging two barrels in one case is quite convenient. There does not exist a more confident shooter when I shoulder either of these.

 

[Eagleye]

How true the statements of the posters here. I own three or four magnums, but they very seldom go hunting with me. I am far more likely to grab the 7x57, the 300 Savage [bolt], the 30-06 or the 8x57 than one of the fire-breathing mags. Magnums have their place, of course, but really are unnecessary for 98% of North American hunting. However, if one prefers the magnum, or feels that he must pack it, I have no problem with that, I just don't want someone fixing me in their steely gaze and telling me I "need" a magnum to hunt with. Regards, Eagleye.

 

[FOTIS]

Some excellent points made here. However there is always the personal card.

I.E. If I hunted with a 308 Win I would fall into a boring induced comma!

Like i said...personal.

 

[elkslayer308]

Oh well, i respect that and a 308 is definately not the one cartridge that everyone needs. I like to think that with a 25-06-90hp, 270-150spbt, 30-06-165pt, 308-180rn, 300win-180grpt or 200pt I have everything covered that i might meet in this part of the world from mice to moose and even bears! I have a few others but they are relics or too specialized to appeal to the utility gun crowd. One cartridge I always thought got the shaft was the 264 Win Mag. And the 284 Winchester as well, both are good rounds but they just didnt make it!?!?! Have shot both and they are accurate and hit as hard or harder than other things in their class. The Mag shoots real flat and the 284 hits as hard as a 280 with a shorter action, crazy huh...since short actions are all anybody wants these days.

 

[FOTIS]

Absolutely agree about the 264 Mag

I took this antelope buck at 503 yards with a Win 70 Super Grade and the 125 Partition at 3350 fps with RL 25.

Awesome cartridge....but do not despair! Remember that the sendero II is now coming out in 264WM!

 

[remingtonman_25_06]

My dad bought a winchester sporter in 264 mag, with 26" bbl the last couple years they made them. He sold it a couple years after he bought it and got a 25-06. The 264 was picky to reload for, the sizing die had to be just right or something, it just would not size the cases. I later read in the sierra manual that you need to take the rifle to a gunsmith and have them check somethign, which was something we did not do. My uncle finally figured out the sizing die problem, but by that time my dad wanted a 25-06 since I had one and was doing quite well with it. He shot a 120g btip with max load of imr4350. Good for 3300fps. It was .6-.7" at 100 yards. He only shot 1 buck with it, but the thing dropped on spot at around 250-300 yards. I wished he still had it, and so does he, its an impressive deer and antelope getter for wayyyy out there. Its also pretty much a collectors item these days. Those 264's are rare to come across.

 

[CamoWildcat]

POP, VERY nice speed goat buck. Did you get him in area 47?

 

[FOTIS]

POP, VERY nice speed goat buck. Did you get him in area 47?

Right next to 47. Actually 42 private ranch but one dirt road divides the 2 areas.

BTW There is a 21" goat out there and a 19" out there! No she-at!!!!!!

We call the 21"incher Granpa Moses. Only to be seen between hunting seasons!!!!!

 

[FOTIS]

Here is a doe at 452 yards with a 416 weatherby

and one at 403 yards with a 300 RUM. This one has a double prong on the left side!

Here is the story

http://gsgroup.co.za/fotis.html