Things I need to improve on...
- Thread starter wisconsinteacher
- Start date
Ridgerunner665
Handloader
- Oct 28, 2008
- 2,516
- 299
Not all of the secrets to sub-MOA groups can be uncovered at the loading bench.
Triggers...
Most factory triggers are OK...but only OK...nothing more, nothing less.
And the trigger can make you or break you...On a hunting rifle I like them to break clean and crisp and about 4.lbs (absolutely no less than 3 lbs.), I also prefer mine to have a little over travel because it gives the bullet time to exit the barrel before the pressure you're putting on the trigger when it breaks moves the rifle...but thats one of those personal preference things...most folks don't like overtravel. Try it both ways and see what works for you...
You don't really need a custom trigger these days, especially not on a hunting rifle...The Remington X-Mark trigger is a good one, easily adjustable and does its job nicely.
Winchesters new MOA triggers are just plain great in my opinion...the only gripe people can come up with is that they are an enclosed trigger...personally, its a non-issue for me...properly maintained it will work when it needs to...the MOA trigger breaks crisp and clean right out of the box, and "feels" lighter than it is due to the geometry of the parts. It also moves so little that you can barely feel it move when you fire the rifle...its a good design. I adjusted mine down as low as it would go...feels like about 3 lbs. but I haven't put a scale on it...I just know I like it.
The Savage triggers are pretty good too (Accutriggers)...but I just don't like that "blade"...that said, they do seem to work.
Bore cleaning...some guns shoot better clean, but most are at their best with a fouled bore. I've known guns that really needed to be cleaned after 20-30 rounds and others that would go literally hundreds before a deep cleaning was needed...you can only know what your rifle is like by trying it and seeing for yourself...
Bores need to be kept lubricated (such as CLP) when not in use...they do NOT have to be cleaned down to the metal after every use. Shoot it until accuracy starts going south...THEN clean it...you won't hurt it by shooting it until it starts printing groups that look like shotgun patterns, if it would hurt it...I would have ruined every rifle I have ever owned. This is the only way to know the personality of your barrel...they're all different...it might take some time to get the copper out afterwards, but you only have to do that a couple of times...then you'll know when to clean it, and how many rounds it takes to get it back to normal shooting.
Most rifles take at least 10-20 rounds to settle back down to normal after a deep cleaning, some may take 30-40 rounds...trying to chase accuracy during this time is just wasting ammo and chasing your tail...I use cheap factory ammo for this task (fouling shots), thats about all its good for anyway these days.
Consistent, dependable, repeatable accuracy happens when EVERYTHING works together...its not just the ammo or the rifle...you yourself are part of the equation too.
After a while you get to know the rifle, but only if you make the effort...you'll know how many rounds you can fire between cleanings, you'll know where the cold bore shot will hit, you'll know where the warm bore shots will hit...nobody here or on any other forum or anywhere else can tell you these things...this knowledge only comes from you shooting your rifle...I'm sure you've heard the creed....
This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.... Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
I only included the "non-war" parts...because that is about the best summary of what it takes that I know of.
Just a few more ramblings... :wink:
To the OP,
Thats about all I have to offer...but one final thing, get your shooting form (cheek weld, trigger squeeze, etc.) sorted out before diving into the reloading part...otherwise, you won't know it when you get "the load" sorted out because the groups will still be inconsistent. Good luck, hope I helped some...practice makes perfect.
Triggers...
Most factory triggers are OK...but only OK...nothing more, nothing less.
And the trigger can make you or break you...On a hunting rifle I like them to break clean and crisp and about 4.lbs (absolutely no less than 3 lbs.), I also prefer mine to have a little over travel because it gives the bullet time to exit the barrel before the pressure you're putting on the trigger when it breaks moves the rifle...but thats one of those personal preference things...most folks don't like overtravel. Try it both ways and see what works for you...
You don't really need a custom trigger these days, especially not on a hunting rifle...The Remington X-Mark trigger is a good one, easily adjustable and does its job nicely.
Winchesters new MOA triggers are just plain great in my opinion...the only gripe people can come up with is that they are an enclosed trigger...personally, its a non-issue for me...properly maintained it will work when it needs to...the MOA trigger breaks crisp and clean right out of the box, and "feels" lighter than it is due to the geometry of the parts. It also moves so little that you can barely feel it move when you fire the rifle...its a good design. I adjusted mine down as low as it would go...feels like about 3 lbs. but I haven't put a scale on it...I just know I like it.
The Savage triggers are pretty good too (Accutriggers)...but I just don't like that "blade"...that said, they do seem to work.
Bore cleaning...some guns shoot better clean, but most are at their best with a fouled bore. I've known guns that really needed to be cleaned after 20-30 rounds and others that would go literally hundreds before a deep cleaning was needed...you can only know what your rifle is like by trying it and seeing for yourself...
Bores need to be kept lubricated (such as CLP) when not in use...they do NOT have to be cleaned down to the metal after every use. Shoot it until accuracy starts going south...THEN clean it...you won't hurt it by shooting it until it starts printing groups that look like shotgun patterns, if it would hurt it...I would have ruined every rifle I have ever owned. This is the only way to know the personality of your barrel...they're all different...it might take some time to get the copper out afterwards, but you only have to do that a couple of times...then you'll know when to clean it, and how many rounds it takes to get it back to normal shooting.
Most rifles take at least 10-20 rounds to settle back down to normal after a deep cleaning, some may take 30-40 rounds...trying to chase accuracy during this time is just wasting ammo and chasing your tail...I use cheap factory ammo for this task (fouling shots), thats about all its good for anyway these days.
Consistent, dependable, repeatable accuracy happens when EVERYTHING works together...its not just the ammo or the rifle...you yourself are part of the equation too.
After a while you get to know the rifle, but only if you make the effort...you'll know how many rounds you can fire between cleanings, you'll know where the cold bore shot will hit, you'll know where the warm bore shots will hit...nobody here or on any other forum or anywhere else can tell you these things...this knowledge only comes from you shooting your rifle...I'm sure you've heard the creed....
This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
My rifle is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life.... Thus, I will learn it as a brother. I will learn its weaknesses, its strength, its parts, its accessories, its sights and its barrel. I will keep my rifle clean and ready, even as I am clean and ready. We will become part of each other. We will...
I only included the "non-war" parts...because that is about the best summary of what it takes that I know of.
Just a few more ramblings... :wink:
To the OP,
Thats about all I have to offer...but one final thing, get your shooting form (cheek weld, trigger squeeze, etc.) sorted out before diving into the reloading part...otherwise, you won't know it when you get "the load" sorted out because the groups will still be inconsistent. Good luck, hope I helped some...practice makes perfect.
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 6
dlove":ykdfc0et said:
Do you know how hard it is to have one rifle that is a true 1/2 minute rifle all of the time? If you did, you would not be saying this. I only see two half MOA groups. The others are nice groups but they are not 1/2 MOA. Close only counts in hand granades and horseshoes. Plus in that group, 5-shot groups are the criteria, not 3-shot.
I am no to trying to discourage you. I just don't accept that evey cheap rifle that you own is a true 1/2 MOA rifle. No when the .5 MOA shooters are shooting 14 pound custom guns with $2000. scopes.
Dr. Vette
Handloader
- Apr 16, 2012
- 1,483
- 377
A couple of thoughts...
To be a true 1/2 MOA rifle it needs to be 1) repeatable (as others have said) and 2) maintain that same accuracy at distance. If you have targets at 200/300/400 yards showing that your rifles continue at 1/2 MOA accuracy then you've got something. 3 shot 100 yard groups are a start but that's all.
Personally I tune my triggers to 2 pounds, but that is my preference. One of mine is at 3 pounds and it was driving me nuts when out shooting on Monday.
To be a true 1/2 MOA rifle it needs to be 1) repeatable (as others have said) and 2) maintain that same accuracy at distance. If you have targets at 200/300/400 yards showing that your rifles continue at 1/2 MOA accuracy then you've got something. 3 shot 100 yard groups are a start but that's all.
Personally I tune my triggers to 2 pounds, but that is my preference. One of mine is at 3 pounds and it was driving me nuts when out shooting on Monday.
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,458
- 3,531
dlove":2cunrdk2 said:
Make another post.....
- Oct 30, 2004
- 24,458
- 3,531
If all the brass weigh within reason, then I only neck turn
quote="Oldtrader3"]Do you know how hard it is to have one rifle that is a true 1/2 minute rifle all of the time? If you did, you would not be saying this. I only see two half MOA groups. The others are nice groups but they are not 1/2 MOA. Close only counts in hand granades and horseshoes. Plus in that group, 5-shot groups are the criteria, not 3-shot.[/quote]
right, all I said was that my rifles would shoot under a half inch. I never claimed they were real competition quality 1/2MOA rifles. my point was that you don't have to be satisfied with mediocre groups. even low end rifles are capable of nice groups if you tinker with them enough. I wasn't trying to offend anyone.
when I made another post it said "the board limit for attachments for this post is 6" ....or something close to that.
sorry for getting sidetracked...
right, all I said was that my rifles would shoot under a half inch. I never claimed they were real competition quality 1/2MOA rifles. my point was that you don't have to be satisfied with mediocre groups. even low end rifles are capable of nice groups if you tinker with them enough. I wasn't trying to offend anyone.
FOTIS":1smd0hey said:
when I made another post it said "the board limit for attachments for this post is 6" ....or something close to that.
sorry for getting sidetracked...
bullet
Handloader
- Dec 26, 2007
- 4,975
- 18
Now try all of this and then you will end up developing the things that work for you. Nothing takes the place of experience with reloading and it is the best teacher as you stay in the parameters of safety, common sense and reason.
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 6
No problem, once you explained. I just wanted to emphasize how really difficult it is to make a rifle into a true half minute rifle. I have several that will do this trick on occasion but I would never call them true 1/2 minute rifles!
Ridgerunner665
Handloader
- Oct 28, 2008
- 2,516
- 299
FOTIS":3u5hl0xj said:
I started to go a little bit into neck turning, neck tension and all that...but figured that was probably Reloading 202, as opposed to Reloading 101, LOL.
I think most factory rifles can get down to MOA without neck turning though...emphasis on "most". If its a custom barrel with a tight spec'd chamber...yep, neck turn...its worth the effort.
6mmBR can explain it better than me so I'm gonna cheat and post a link in case anybody want to read about it... http://www.6mmbr.com/neckturningbasics.html
Ridgerunner665
Handloader
- Oct 28, 2008
- 2,516
- 299
wisconsinteacher,
This 30-06 you have, what is it exactly?
What bullets are you trying to use?
Powder?
Brass?
Primers?
Dies?
It was a 2 year process for me to get my 30-06 to where it was a reliable sub-MOA shooter....I'm not making any promises, but I might be able to shorten your journey a bit...maybe.
This 30-06 you have, what is it exactly?
What bullets are you trying to use?
Powder?
Brass?
Primers?
Dies?
It was a 2 year process for me to get my 30-06 to where it was a reliable sub-MOA shooter....I'm not making any promises, but I might be able to shorten your journey a bit...maybe.
- Thread starter
- #32
wisconsinteacher
Handloader
- Dec 2, 2010
- 1,980
- 293
Well, the reason for the 2 year process is due to a scope that went down and then me putting a lot more focus on my .338. I am going to focus on it this summer. I am going to have the barrel recrowned and put a Leupold on the rifle. I plan on using 180 AB, with Win brass, Lee dies and shooting them out of my Ruger M77 that has had the trigger tuned down to 3.5#.
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 6
wisconsinteacher":24t1ykd6 said:
That all makes sense and it sounds as though you had to make some major adjustments in order to use the .338 WM. I think that most of us have had similar experiences in tha acquisition and training for owning a medium magnum rifle. They do require more than a cheap scope and going hunting.
I am crious though as to why you are using the 180 grain bullet. Most of us use the 210 or 225 grain bullets like the Partition at least for elk hunting. This in order to get the power of the .338 magnum to deliver on game.
Ridgerunner665
Handloader
- Oct 28, 2008
- 2,516
- 299
I think he was talking about using the 180 AB in the 30-06, and the 338 being the reason he hasn't worked more with the '06.
Oldtrader3
Ammo Smith
- Nov 6, 2009
- 8,406
- 6
Makes sense, I was reading into what he said.
Ridgerunner665
Handloader
- Oct 28, 2008
- 2,516
- 299
Now wait just a minute...I seem to have lost track of time somewhere, and bad!
It has not been 2 years since I got my 30-06...I got it in December of last year...I know this because of my posts on Marlin Owners from when I first got it. (post #20 in the link below)
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloa ... 6-a-2.html
But I have worked on it every chance I've had since then...adjusted the trigger, tweaked loads, its been sighted in with 2 different scopes in that time...and I know exactly how many rounds have been fired through it (212).
I'm not sure where I got the "2 year" idea...maybe its just because I worked so much of last year (seemed closer to 3 years, LOL)
It has not been 2 years since I got my 30-06...I got it in December of last year...I know this because of my posts on Marlin Owners from when I first got it. (post #20 in the link below)
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloa ... 6-a-2.html
But I have worked on it every chance I've had since then...adjusted the trigger, tweaked loads, its been sighted in with 2 different scopes in that time...and I know exactly how many rounds have been fired through it (212).
I'm not sure where I got the "2 year" idea...maybe its just because I worked so much of last year (seemed closer to 3 years, LOL)
DrMike
Ballistician
- Nov 8, 2006
- 37,544
- 6,624
Ridgerunner665":27frs0z9 said:
Ain't it funny, how time just kinda' slips away. :mrgreen:
I would suspect the scale if things aren't adding up.
I have found with some scales, they need to be check weight in the range you are looking at when you are trying to weigh lighter to heavier weight ranges.
If you are in your sort range of each component,,,why weigh the finished round? I personally don't see the need to do so.
Then how are your shooting fundementals? Without consistency there, all else is an exercise in futility.
Other than that I have the same thoughts as Ridgerunner on his first post.
I have found with some scales, they need to be check weight in the range you are looking at when you are trying to weigh lighter to heavier weight ranges.
If you are in your sort range of each component,,,why weigh the finished round? I personally don't see the need to do so.
Then how are your shooting fundementals? Without consistency there, all else is an exercise in futility.
Other than that I have the same thoughts as Ridgerunner on his first post.
