Wondering on 6.5-06 ?

[J.R.K.83226]

Are any of you folks loading for this presently or past? And is it worth having a rifle built? I'm thinking about it mainly because of the choice of bullets and wieght selection. Plus i have the itch/want for a new project. Thanks for any and all input. John

 

[JD338]

The 6.5-06 is a flat liner cartridge! This is Chub Eastmans of Nosler favorite round and JusMo is about to pull the trigger and have one built.
The 140 gr AB at 2900 fps makes for one heck of a long range rifle and is nipping the heals of the 264 Win Mag.

JD338

 

[6mm Remington]

it's one that I would consider for sure. Anything necked up or down on the 30-06 case has been terrific. It would be simple to form your cases from new 25-06 brass and just run them over the expander ball and you would be set. The 6.5x284 has kind of set the world on fire here lately for a target and hunting round, and I don't see why the 6.5/06 would not be just as good. The 260 Remington is a wonderful cartriged, but both the 6.5x284 and the 6.5-06 provide quite a bit more pop without excess recoil and noise. You guys have started my RADD condition off again gosh darn it!

I think the 6.5-06 would be great, but I've read about and dreamed about for a long time of having a 6mm-06! Just something about it. Maybe it's the 6mm in front of the 06 part that gets me, I do not know, but I know I have really had a desire to have one. Maybe I should just have one made in that instead of getting another 6mm Remington in a bolt rifle to go along with my #1B in 6mm? Help me guys :mrgreen: If they called it the .243-06 as I have heard a couple of times called by that handle, I think I would gut shoot them. How dare they!

Good luck. It's a great project. What would you build it on? Any ideas yet? Give us some more information so we can drool a little more and maybe me more of an encouragement to you! :grin:

 

[nitis]

I wish remington would make this a standard round and debut it in their cdlsf next year!!!!!! IT would be a great round for my son that will be born come january but if he gets here before the first the 280 is no slouch

 

[J.R.K.83226]

Well as of today i have 2 Ruger M77 MK2 both of which are 280 Rems. One is a Sporter and the other is a RMEF model. The Sporter would be the one to get reworked. I'm thinking a 24" or 26" barrel,fluted,1in 8 or 1in 9 twist rate,capped off with a muzzle brake and cap protector. From Pacnor. I had them do my 338 W.M. and it's a definate shooter. 5 rounds at 100 yards and the little red dot goes bye bye. John

 

[jmad_81]

Well I had it narrowed to the 280 AI and 6.5-06 AI for the last rifle I built. It was primarily for deer and speed goats, but would back up for elk. I went with the 280 AI for that reason. I'm sure that a 6.5-06 would of worked even for elk. Maybe I should of done more homework. They sure look impressive on paper.

 

[FOTIS]

JD is correct! Heck of a round and close to the 264 maggie

 

[FOTIS]

Here are some loads

Cartridge : 6.5-06
Bullet : .264, 130, Nosler AccuBond 56902
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.

Matching Maximum Pressure: 62000 psi, or 427 MPa

or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 110 %

These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-25 109.8 57.8 3.75 3120 100.0 62000 12564 1.131 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 101.8 56.2 3.64 3117 99.9 62000 13063 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy) 105.9 60.1 3.89 3111 98.8 62000 13153 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560 103.5 56.0 3.63 3110 98.1 62000 13363 1.136 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 517 106.3 60.1 3.89 3110 98.8 62000 13140 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 12 106.2 60.0 3.89 3110 98.9 62000 13119 1.128 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO 103.8 58.4 3.79 3099 96.8 62000 13423 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC 102.2 55.6 3.60 3098 98.4 62000 12940 1.126 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 108.0 55.6 3.60 3098 98.4 62000 12940 1.126 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP5/NP ~approximation 103.8 55.5 3.60 3087 99.3 62000 12862 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA15 103.8 55.5 3.60 3087 99.3 62000 12862 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22 103.8 55.5 3.60 3087 99.3 62000 12862 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR 106.5 55.8 3.62 3086 99.2 62000 12876 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213 103.1 55.2 3.58 3083 98.3 62000 12815 1.125 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214 107.0 58.8 3.81 3074 98.6 62000 12648 1.124 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N570 110.0 61.4 3.98 3058 93.2 55585 14210 1.187 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R905 105.0 55.2 3.57 3052 98.0 62000 12529 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2 110.0 58.2 3.77 3050 98.3 57299 13230 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209 100.0 52.6 3.41 3045 99.1 62000 12183 1.132 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19 100.5 53.2 3.45 3042 99.2 62000 12248 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350 95.8 50.4 3.27 3037 100.0 62000 11674 1.139 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter 96.0 52.5 3.40 3036 100.0 62000 11848 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP14 ~approximation 101.2 53.6 3.47 3035 99.1 62000 12160 1.141 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760 90.7 50.8 3.29 3034 99.8 62000 11898 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350 98.2 49.8 3.23 3025 99.9 62000 11655 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17 88.5 49.1 3.18 3024 100.0 62000 11168 1.135 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S365 97.6 51.4 3.33 3020 100.0 62000 11001 1.158 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP4 ~approximation 98.4 52.1 3.38 3018 99.0 62000 11934 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA4 98.4 52.1 3.38 3018 99.0 62000 11934 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204 95.3 52.1 3.38 3018 99.0 62000 11934 1.140 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC 101.7 54.4 3.53 3016 97.7 62000 12069 1.137 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 105.8 54.4 3.53 3016 97.7 62000 12069 1.137 ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP 95.6 50.1 3.24 3014 100.0 62000 11336 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550 92.8 50.2 3.26 3014 100.0 62000 11473 1.157 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP19 ~approximation 95.6 50.1 3.24 3013 100.0 62000 11333 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414 88.5 49.9 3.23 3012 99.8 62000 11720 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350 99.1 50.2 3.25 3009 100.0 62000 11304 1.170 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S385 100.7 53.9 3.49 3004 99.6 62000 11706 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831 100.3 50.8 3.29 2995 100.0 62000 11092 1.162 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780 99.1 55.3 3.59 2994 99.1 62000 11635 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame 89.2 48.8 3.16 2991 100.0 62000 10928 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100 109.8 55.0 3.56 2991 100.0 62000 11370 1.174 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000 110.0 57.6 3.73 2991 97.7 56903 12403 1.169 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 11 89.3 48.8 3.16 2990 100.0 62000 10913 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165 106.0 55.5 3.60 2989 99.4 62000 11434 1.150 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R904 99.3 51.8 3.36 2989 98.3 62000 11641 1.142 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-S0701 95.3 49.9 3.24 2979 99.9 62000 11300 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP11 ~approximation 87.0 46.1 2.99 2975 100.0 62000 10793 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15 87.0 46.1 2.99 2975 100.0 62000 10793 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Raufoss RA11 87.0 46.1 2.99 2975 100.0 62000 10793 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895 88.0 45.1 2.92 2975 100.0 62000 10317 1.136 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380 88.3 47.8 3.10 2972 100.0 62000 10952 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160 106.0 53.8 3.49 2971 98.2 62000 11428 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B 87.4 46.3 3.00 2970 100.0 62000 10705 1.158 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V 101.5 50.2 3.26 2970 100.0 62000 10459 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 516 85.3 48.1 3.12 2966 100.0 62000 10832 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R907 93.2 48.4 3.14 2960 99.6 62000 11133 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC 90.3 48.5 3.14 2960 99.6 62000 11126 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320 89.0 46.3 3.00 2959 100.0 62000 10423 1.143 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2 82.2 47.5 3.08 2959 100.0 62000 10550 1.163 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old 88.5 47.4 3.07 2956 100.0 62000 10535 1.173 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-S0651 94.2 48.8 3.16 2955 100.0 62000 10865 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R903 90.5 47.4 3.07 2952 100.0 62000 10453 1.172 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 9 85.1 46.5 3.01 2950 100.0 62000 10455 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S355 90.8 47.0 3.05 2949 100.0 62000 10467 1.165 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748 79.8 45.5 2.95 2948 100.0 62000 10201 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET 89.9 46.1 2.99 2944 100.0 62000 10442 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208 89.6 46.1 2.99 2944 100.0 62000 10442 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064 90.4 45.2 2.93 2935 100.0 62000 10243 1.150 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo 110.0 58.6 3.79 2934 99.1 49497 12922 1.249
Somchem S341 83.4 47.5 3.08 2934 100.0 62000 10196 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 507 81.9 45.3 2.93 2933 100.0 62000 10166 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 79.7 45.2 2.93 2931 100.0 62000 10144 1.155 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S321 80.4 45.8 2.97 2928 100.0 62000 10178 1.162 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530 81.3 43.3 2.81 2926 100.0 62000 10060 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-S0621 88.0 45.3 2.94 2923 100.0 62000 10074 1.166 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895 89.5 45.8 2.97 2919 100.0 62000 9882 1.151 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520 83.9 45.8 2.97 2918 100.0 62000 9912 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201 81.9 44.3 2.87 2916 100.0 62000 10033 1.167 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031 86.1 42.6 2.76 2914 100.0 62000 9702 1.165 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700 91.4 50.0 3.24 2913 99.5 62000 10522 1.157 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064 92.0 45.6 2.95 2908 100.0 62000 9881 1.194 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R902 87.1 44.5 2.88 2907 100.0 62000 9914 1.168 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150 95.8 47.8 3.10 2905 100.0 62000 9865 1.165 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan Sp 7 78.1 44.4 2.87 2904 100.0 62000 9798 1.174 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140 92.4 47.0 3.04 2902 100.0 62000 9812 1.157 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2218 110.0 62.0 4.02 2902 89.6 49897 13708 1.242
Hodgdon H335 76.5 44.2 2.87 2901 100.0 62000 9732 1.159 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540 87.0 46.5 3.02 2900 100.0 62000 9867 1.164 ! Near Maximum !
SNPE Vectan SP 10 76.2 43.1 2.79 2900 100.0 62000 9696 1.159 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-S0601 85.4 44.0 2.85 2899 100.0 62000 9821 1.147 ! Near Maximum !
PB Clermont PCL 508 76.2 43.2 2.80 2898 100.0 62000 9683 1.159 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202 84.7 44.1 2.86 2898 100.0 62000 9707 1.165 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-D1001 110.0 62.7 4.06 2895 88.0 57726 11701 1.183 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460 79.1 44.9 2.91 2894 100.0 62000 9700 1.175 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-D0731 78.1 44.1 2.86 2889 100.0 62000 9616 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 76.2 41.7 2.70 2887 100.0 62000 9461 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 81.0 41.7 2.70 2887 100.0 62000 9461 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230 77.9 44.2 2.87 2887 100.0 62000 9577 1.170 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206 84.9 44.5 2.88 2886 100.0 62000 9667 1.148 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 77.8 42.5 2.76 2885 100.0 62000 9579 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H 84.2 44.6 2.89 2883 100.0 62000 9638 1.146 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-D0733 77.9 43.9 2.85 2882 100.0 62000 9528 1.159 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator 74.7 42.4 2.75 2882 100.0 62000 9485 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark 82.8 43.2 2.80 2880 100.0 62000 9530 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Rottweil R901 83.5 42.0 2.72 2879 100.0 62000 9552 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2 76.2 43.0 2.78 2878 100.0 62000 9509 1.152 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495 85.5 42.8 2.78 2878 100.0 62000 9512 1.200 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-D0832 79.6 44.5 2.88 2869 100.0 62000 9193 1.170 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 75.6 40.7 2.63 2868 100.0 62000 9311 1.150 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41 110.0 62.0 4.02 2864 85.0 52816 12181 1.219
Alliant Reloder-12 81.2 43.8 2.84 2860 100.0 62000 9246 1.160 ! Near Maximum !
Nitrochemie A/S 0300 73.4 39.9 2.58 2859 100.0 62000 9136 1.166 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135 92.0 44.1 2.86 2857 100.0 62000 9127 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
Somchem S335 85.2 44.1 2.86 2833 100.0 62000 9027 1.171 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x 78.9 39.4 2.55 2831 100.0 62000 8934 1.172 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N170 110.0 57.6 3.73 2825 90.3 51664 11683 1.259
Accurate 2015 80.2 41.1 2.66 2824 100.0 62000 8844 1.178 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 77.2 38.4 2.49 2822 100.0 62000 8695 1.145 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 67.5 38.4 2.49 2820 100.0 62000 8758 1.153 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870 110.0 60.1 3.90 2809 91.2 44018 12920 1.329
Vihtavuori N133 86.8 42.1 2.73 2807 100.0 62000 8615 1.164 ! Near Maximum !
SF-033 fl 75.2 40.7 2.64 2806 100.0 62000 8671 1.189 ! Near Maximum !
Bofors RP1/NP ~approximation 71.4 39.1 2.54 2806 100.0 62000 8704 1.185 ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200 71.4 39.1 2.54 2806 100.0 62000 8704 1.185 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 68.9 34.1 2.21 2799 100.0 62000 8657 1.150 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 79.1 37.5 2.43 2792 100.0 62000 8410 1.154 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130 82.0 40.6 2.63 2791 100.0 62000 8517 1.169 ! Near Maximum !
Kazan Sunar 308W 78.3 40.6 2.63 2789 100.0 62000 8502 1.168 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder- 7 74.8 38.3 2.48 2785 100.0 62000 8470 1.170 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207 74.7 37.0 2.40 2764 100.0 62000 8302 1.176 ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 296 59.0 33.6 2.17 2760 100.0 62000 8293 1.174 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 72.2 35.0 2.27 2735 100.0 62000 7936 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 72.3 35.0 2.27 2734 100.0 62000 7944 1.161 ! Near Maximum !
Nitrochemie A/S 0200 65.4 34.7 2.25 2721 100.0 62000 7859 1.171 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 77.0 37.2 2.41 2714 100.0 62000 7802 1.181 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-D0631 60.1 33.2 2.15 2698 100.0 62000 7652 1.156 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H110 60.9 34.6 2.24 2692 100.0 62000 7780 1.182 ! Near Maximum !
Lovex-S0531 73.1 34.7 2.25 2686 100.0 62000 7607 1.175 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon US 869 110.0 62.0 4.02 2662 80.6 42592 11312 1.357

 

[SJB358]

I have looked at the 6.5-06 a little also. As much as I really like the 264WM, I think the 6.5-06 is probably a more well rounded cartridge. Cases would be easy to come by, powder wouldn't get swallowed quite so fast and the return on powder use for hunting weight bullets is pretty good. Plus, you can make one out of any 06 chambered rifle pretty easily I would think. Once I get my .257 I am going to start looking for my 6.5 caliber. The Ruger MKII seems like it would make a nice platform for your new rifle or a M70. Scotty

 

[Murphdog]

My wifes uncle gave us an A3-03 Springfield in very good condition. Don't need another 30-06 but I too am looking at the 6.5-06. I think in the 130 grain AB would be just the ticket for gun shy coyotes. Deer and Praire Goats would be a bonus. I am thinking of setting it up in more of a varmint configuration. Any thoughts on the idea?

 

[Desert Fox]

I was contemplating building a rifle on this caliber but decided on 6.5-284 due to the availability of high quality brass. However, the ballistic is almost identical. You can't go wrong either way. Something to ponder :twisted: .

 

[balew6254]

Murphdog,
If that 03-A3 is in good military condition it would be a shame to sporterize it and destroy a valuable historical rifle. Get it appraised, sell it for a fair price and find something else to convert to a 6.5-06. There are lots of folks looking for a good military 03-A3 at a fair price even if it might be a rebuild. Check out http://www.thecmp.org/forums I' bet some one there will be interested in a good one in military configuration.

Bruce

 

[Powerstroke]

The 6.5's definately fill a nice little area amoung thier bigger brothers.

Nosler now covering the 130 / 140 hunting bullet weight, the 6.5-06 will handle all North America has short of
the big bears.
There are alot of them that are very close to one another - 6.5-06, 6.5RM ( the original short mag I might add ), .260AI, 6.5x47LM, .264WM etc etc.

I just recently gave up on getting my .223VTR to shoot - it's now a donor action the first of the year for a 6.5x47

Let us know what you decide and the build specifics

 

[J.R.K.83226]

Okay here's whats in the works. Ruger M77 MK2 action,PacNor 24" super match grade #2 contoured fluted barrel with a 1 in 9" rate of twist. Also a PacNor muzzlebrake and thread cap protector. Timney adjustable trigger. Hogue Overmoulded stock with full length bedding block. Leupold VX3 4.5-14x40mm-SF, Matte finish, B & C Reticle. The first day isn't over and already i'm getting impatient with waiting. 14 to 16 weeks is going to make me bonkers LOL! CAN'T WAIT!!! Really would like to have a model70 action but i didn't want to go buy a new toy only to turn around and send it out the day after getting it, can't see spending that much more money. I trade a Ca. non complyant toy for the M77 MK2 280 Rem RMEF model and thats the one i'm keeping as is. For 2 reason ,1- It's practically new. 2-It shoots as good as the sporter model. The sporter model has seen and been thru some good fun as well as put a few critters in the freezer. NOW THE COUNT DOWN IS ON " Thanks for all the input and i'll let folks know when its done and completed . John

 

[ACLakey]

I had one built about 15 years ago and hunted far and wide with it. I was using 140gr BT at the time and had no problems taking everything from coyotes to elk with the setup. Sadly the rifle was stolen about five years ago...I miss that one. I thought about having another one built or having a 6.5x284 built due to the availability of quality brass. After thinking it over more and more I would likely go with a 280AI in the future due to the availability of great bullets. I think you will enjoy the 6.5-06, it is an outstanding all around setup.

 

[SJB358]

Okay here's whats in the works. Ruger M77 MK2 action,PacNor 24" super match grade #2 contoured fluted barrel with a 1 in 9" rate of twist. Also a PacNor muzzlebrake and thread cap protector. Timney adjustable trigger. Hogue Overmoulded stock with full length bedding block. Leupold VX3 4.5-14x40mm-SF, Matte finish, B & C Reticle. The first day isn't over and already i'm getting impatient with waiting. 14 to 16 weeks is going to make me bonkers LOL! CAN'T WAIT!!! Really would like to have a model70 action but i didn't want to go buy a new toy only to turn around and send it out the day after getting it, can't see spending that much more money. I trade a Ca. non complyant toy for the M77 MK2 280 Rem RMEF model and thats the one i'm keeping as is. For 2 reason ,1- It's practically new. 2-It shoots as good as the sporter model. The sporter model has seen and been thru some good fun as well as put a few critters in the freezer. NOW THE COUNT DOWN IS ON " Thanks for all the input and i'll let folks know when its done and completed . John

John, that is going to be an awesome one! It sounds like a awesome set up. Sometimes Pac Nor is a little faster, so you may get it by the winter! Scotty

 

[FOTIS]

I have had spectacular luck with Pac-nor Barrels!

 

[WillFish1]

POP-could you run some QL loads for the 140PT. I've been shooting this round since about 1974 and it's time to try some new powders!