Need some help figuring out this issue - 6 Dasher

[TackDriver284]

I have been real busy, but was able to fire off 230 rounds of loaded virgin Alpha brass for my 6 Dasher to be fireformed for my upcoming 600 yard matches but there is an issue that I have been wrangling with. It will be quite a lengthy story, but I'll do my best. The Dasher is a .275 no turn.
I sized all virgin brass with the new Short Action Customs modular sizing die which has the .265" bushing, the bushing can bump the shoulders and size the neck at the same time, and its on a .242" mandrel stem as well, all 3 in one step. I did not bump the shoulders at all, just sized the neck to fireform using 105 Hybrids at the recent matches. After fireforming 230 pieces out of 300 pieces of virgin Alpha brass, inspection of the fired brass shows excellent conditions and smoothness, no carbon on the necks or shoulders at all, accuracy was around .25 MOA @ 100 yards,,,respectable using virgin brass.
I deprimed all 230 pieces, cleaned the body and inside the necks, annealed all the 230 pieces using the " turn off the light and see the glow" method and cleaned the brass again. There is no need for trimming, the length has not grown more than .002", I uniformed the primer pockets with a PMA uniformer. I sized 18 pieces of 1X fired brass bumped .002" on the dot, primed with CCI 450 SR primers, loaded in 3 round groups in .2 increments up to 32 grains. Seated 105 Berger Hybrids .010" off the lands. I was excited to test it, before testing I cleaned the barrel because I had 230 rounds down the tube, no copper traces just some carbon that was removed.
At the range, I shot the first round and noticed heavy carbon on the shoulders all around, strange, and proceeded to fire the rest. All the fired cases have heavy carbon on the shoulders but stopped short of the shoulder / body junction. It seems that the case mouths are not sealing the gases. I was really disappointed so I headed home. I did some measuring on the fired and sized cases, the fired cases are 1.193" headspace, and the sized 1X cases are .1.191", the virgin brass headspace is .288" It seems spot on. Measured the shoulders on the virgin brass, fired and sized brass. Virgin brass shoulder diameter is .457, fired brass is .460 and sized brass is .458
When I bumped the shoulders, I tested it two ways, one is by feel and the other by measuring, fired is 1.193", bumped to 1.192" and bolt close was a little snug, then bumped to 1.191" which closed without resistance. I measured the fired necks and it measures .274" and when sizing it measured .265" and .242 mandrel opened it up to .267 ", and after seating the bullet, it measured at .268", so I'm having .007" clearance or .0035 per side, some might think its excessive, but it seems fine to me because the virgin brass never showed any carbon at all. So I ran a few tests again, I had 70 pieces of virgin brass that was sized along with 230 pieces that was fired, and I used 3 of those virgin pieces and loaded them exactly the same loads I used, also sized 6 pieces more of 2X fired brass, but no annealing this time. Loaded those with 3 pieces .005" off and 3 other pieces at .010" jam. Plus I got 6 more pieces of the 1X fired brass and annealed and loaded the same loads with same jam and .010" off. Tested them and all the fired brass still showed heavy carbon on the shoulders and shots on paper is erratic and did not should small groups at all. Except that the virgin brass loaded at 31.8 grains shot .25 MOA and did NOT show any carbon at all. Went back home to do a final test, I bumped the shoulders to .288" to mimic the virgin brass and loaded 3 and went back to the range, and fired them, it still has heavy carbon on the shoulders. This shit is pissing me off. I bet it could be a defective die from Short Action Customs. I have always used Redding full bushing dies for my other rifles and they work extremely well for me. At this point, I just don't know what else i can do to stop that pesky carbon on my fired brass shoulders. Should I get a new Redding full size bushing die for the Dasher?
Would anyone have a clue? Hopefully someone could help me figure this out.

 

[RL338]

The one thing I’m guessing it’s your annealing. I’ve found that some of my Peterson brass didn’t like annealing after one firing.
I would take a piece of the 2x brass that wasn’t annealed and keep sizing and firing it to see if working harding solves the carbon issue.

 

[TackDriver284]

The one thing I’m guessing it’s your annealing. I’ve found that some of my Peterson brass didn’t like annealing after one firing.
I would take a piece of the 2x brass that wasn’t annealed and keep sizing and firing it to see if working harding solves the carbon issue.

I done it once without annealing, I'll try again soon.

 

[TackDriver284]

Never mind, I shipped the die off to Short Action Customs along with my fired and virgin brass.

 

[300WSM]

I have been real busy, but was able to fire off 230 rounds of loaded virgin Alpha brass for my 6 Dasher to be fireformed for my upcoming 600 yard matches but there is an issue that I have been wrangling with. It will be quite a lengthy story, but I'll do my best. The Dasher is a .275 no turn.
I sized all virgin brass with the new Short Action Customs modular sizing die which has the .265" bushing, the bushing can bump the shoulders and size the neck at the same time, and its on a .242" mandrel stem as well, all 3 in one step. I did not bump the shoulders at all, just sized the neck to fireform using 105 Hybrids at the recent matches. After fireforming 230 pieces out of 300 pieces of virgin Alpha brass, inspection of the fired brass shows excellent conditions and smoothness, no carbon on the necks or shoulders at all, accuracy was around .25 MOA @ 100 yards,,,respectable using virgin brass.
I deprimed all 230 pieces, cleaned the body and inside the necks, annealed all the 230 pieces using the " turn off the light and see the glow" method and cleaned the brass again. There is no need for trimming, the length has not grown more than .002", I uniformed the primer pockets with a PMA uniformer. I sized 18 pieces of 1X fired brass bumped .002" on the dot, primed with CCI 450 SR primers, loaded in 3 round groups in .2 increments up to 32 grains. Seated 105 Berger Hybrids .010" off the lands. I was excited to test it, before testing I cleaned the barrel because I had 230 rounds down the tube, no copper traces just some carbon that was removed.
At the range, I shot the first round and noticed heavy carbon on the shoulders all around, strange, and proceeded to fire the rest. All the fired cases have heavy carbon on the shoulders but stopped short of the shoulder / body junction. It seems that the case mouths are not sealing the gases. I was really disappointed so I headed home. I did some measuring on the fired and sized cases, the fired cases are 1.193" headspace, and the sized 1X cases are .1.191", the virgin brass headspace is .288" It seems spot on. Measured the shoulders on the virgin brass, fired and sized brass. Virgin brass shoulder diameter is .457, fired brass is .460 and sized brass is .458
When I bumped the shoulders, I tested it two ways, one is by feel and the other by measuring, fired is 1.193", bumped to 1.192" and bolt close was a little snug, then bumped to 1.191" which closed without resistance. I measured the fired necks and it measures .274" and when sizing it measured .265" and .242 mandrel opened it up to .267 ", and after seating the bullet, it measured at .268", so I'm having .007" clearance or .0035 per side, some might think its excessive, but it seems fine to me because the virgin brass never showed any carbon at all. So I ran a few tests again, I had 70 pieces of virgin brass that was sized along with 230 pieces that was fired, and I used 3 of those virgin pieces and loaded them exactly the same loads I used, also sized 6 pieces more of 2X fired brass, but no annealing this time. Loaded those with 3 pieces .005" off and 3 other pieces at .010" jam. Plus I got 6 more pieces of the 1X fired brass and annealed and loaded the same loads with same jam and .010" off. Tested them and all the fired brass still showed heavy carbon on the shoulders and shots on paper is erratic and did not should small groups at all. Except that the virgin brass loaded at 31.8 grains shot .25 MOA and did NOT show any carbon at all. Went back home to do a final test, I bumped the shoulders to .288" to mimic the virgin brass and loaded 3 and went back to the range, and fired them, it still has heavy carbon on the shoulders. This shit is pissing me off. I bet it could be a defective die from Short Action Customs. I have always used Redding full bushing dies for my other rifles and they work extremely well for me. At this point, I just don't know what else i can do to stop that pesky carbon on my fired brass shoulders. Should I get a new Redding full size bushing die for the Dasher?
Would anyone have a clue? Hopefully someone could help me figure this out.View attachment 26442

I tried to stay with you.

Am I right in reading your carbon ring is showing up after annealing?

At the very least I read that early in your post...virgin brass...annealed...carbon ring shows up.


Couple things of note....

Some times less is more.
It's your hobby but I've found a lot of the steps you're doing completely unnecessary. Not all but remember this...

A lot of what we do or have tried in this hobby is because sonronw else "said so"

You also have so many variables and shooting a .25 group with a cartridge this new...is doing damm good.

Skip the annealing and go shooting for a while amd enjoy

When it becomes like work it's no longer fun.
Just sayin'

Good luck

 

[Ridge_Runner]

over annealed, necks are to soft. You do not let them glow, heat just enough to change color. they will be fine after another firing or two.

 

[TackDriver284]

It's your hobby but I've found a lot of the steps you're doing completely unnecessary. Not all but remember this...

I have shot the same cases twice without annealing, still have carbon issues.
Virgin brass tried on two separate tests came out clean / no carbon . I sized neck and body only when I sized prior to when I had 300 pieces. after it was fired, I adjusted for bump to get .002" bump. I noticed that the bushing is not adjustable, it sizes all the way down to the shoulder, it could have possibly distorted the shoulders a little. I like sizing partially like half a neck to 3/4 of the neck on all my rifles to help seal and center the cases in the chamber, with the new SAC die, you cannot do this.
It gets carbon on the shoulders when I sized it, anneal or no anneal, still same issues. It's the die in my opinion.
What did i do that was unnecessary?

 

[TackDriver284]

over annealed, necks are to soft. You do not let them glow, heat just enough to change color. they will be fine after another firing or two.

The necks did not glow, maybe I did mis interpret, its was change color to a faint orange when I pulled.

 

[RL338]

He did get a lot of firings without annealing. Goes against what I do. Every firing for me.

 

[TackDriver284]

By the way, I forgot to include in my post that the virgin brass that was fired on my last test had no carbon, on that brass it was never annealed and I sized it and fired it two more times, it still had carbon. So annealing had nothing to do with it.

 

[300WSM]

I have shot the same cases twice without annealing, still have carbon issues.
Virgin brass tried on two separate tests came out clean / no carbon . I sized neck and body only when I sized prior to when I had 300 pieces. after it was fired, I adjusted for bump to get .002" bump. I noticed that the bushing is not adjustable, it sizes all the way down to the shoulder, it could have possibly distorted the shoulders a little. I like sizing partially like half a neck to 3/4 of the neck on all my rifles to help seal and center the cases in the chamber, with the new SAC die, you cannot do this.
It gets carbon on the shoulders when I sized it, anneal or no anneal, still same issues. It's the die in my opinion.
What did i do that was unnecessary?

Ok....

So simplify.


You used virgin brass and got no carbon. Plus a .25 group.
Great.

When you started messing with things the carbon shows up.and accuracy suffered.
Shoulder bump or not or how much, partial resize or semi partial size/neck size, annealing,, and whatever else I'm missing from your laundry list....(not being sarcastic I assure you)

Less is more.... at this point judging by your emotions( through text), I'd simply try to recreate the dimensions of your virgin brass and go shooting.

Maybe it's doing a simple full length size and a trim....whatever you need to duplicate the virgin brass dimensions and go enjoy for awhile.

P.s.

I've had weapons that were happiest just getting a FL resize and trim when needed. No matter what else I did accuracy didn't improve or decreased.

I've also had some that needed the kitchen sink thrown at it to get better.

At this point I think you're further ahead doing less.

Lastly...I'm not sure how your 600 yard matches are scored but mine
simply score on the ring hit.
X,
10,
9,
8,
7,

Group size was never a factor in 600.

Now 1000 yards...

Group matters...along with every variable known to man. Wind, mirage, wind, how quickly to shoot, wind, how much to wait on shooting another bullet, did i mention wind?

 

[TackDriver284]

Ok....

So simplify.


You used virgin brass and got no carbon. Plus a .25 group.
Great.

When you started messing with things the carbon shows up.and accuracy suffered.
Shoulder bump or not or how much, partial resize or semi partial size/neck size, annealing,, and whatever else I'm missing from your laundry list....(not being sarcastic I assure you)

Less is more.... at this point judging by your emotions( through text), I'd simply try to recreate the dimensions of your virgin brass and go shooting.

Maybe it's doing a simple full length size and a trim....whatever you need to duplicate the virgin brass dimensions and go enjoy for awhile.

P.s.

I've had weapons that were happiest just getting a FL resize and trim when needed. No matter what else I did accuracy didn't improve or decreased.

I've also had some that needed the kitchen sink thrown at it to get better.

At this point I think you're further ahead doing less.

Lastly...I'm not sure how your 600 yard matches are scored but mine
simply score on the ring hit.
X,
10,
9,
8,
7,

Group size was never a factor in 600.

Now 1000 yards...

Group matters...along with every variable known to man. Wind, mirage, wind, how quickly to shoot, wind, how much to wait on shooting another bullet, did i mention wind?

Virgin brass without bumping at all shows excellent results on paper at 100, even at 600 yards, I made great scores with a few nines from wind or human error. It did great, after sizing the 1X fired brass with bump, accuracy was poor compared to my virgin brass results plus issues with carbon on the shoulders. I would not mimic virgin brass dimensions with fired brass because I have already tried it as well, accuracy was poor along with carbon issues. I could shoot one more match with the remaining 64 rounds of virgin brass I have left out of 300 pieces, then what? I even lost interest going to the next match and shoot those virgin brass until I get the results from Short Action Customs on what they found with that die. My major concern is what is next after all the virgin brass is fired. If SAC does not find anything wrong with it, then I'll see if I can buy a Redding full sizie bushing die, I still have the .266 bushing from the 6 BR. I would be happy if I could prove to SAC that the issue is with their die if the Redding does not cause any issues. I have used Redding dies for 25 years and my rifles shoots bugholes or better with my annealing and sizing methods. Hopefully SAC finds something wrong with their product and gets a fix for it.

 

[300WSM]

Something isn't making sense unless I'm missing something (which probably is the case )

"Virgin brass without bumping at all shows excellent results on paper at 100, even at 600 yards, I made great scores with a few nines from wind or human error. "
"I would not mimic virgin brass dimensions with fired brass because I have already tried it as well, accuracy was poor along with carbon issues."

Then obviously it's not an exact copy.

If it were then your results would be the same(good accuracy) plus no carbon as the actual virgin brass.


So there is some dimension(s) that isn't exact as the virgin...

Unless I am not following you

 

[300WSM]

To add one more thing...
What if the gun shoots lights out using only new "virgin" brass.

I dont know how much it's going for but if you're getting .250 grouping at 100 yards thats real good. Particularly if you're shooting further, which you are.

Is that a deal breaker if you can't just load up the new brass and shoot?
Those matches don't require a ton of ammo.

A lot of shooters would love to be in your position getting that group with new brass.

 

[TackDriver284]

Is that a deal breaker if you can't just load up the new brass and shoot?
Those matches don't require a ton of ammo.

60 shots per match, i only have enough for one last match. I won't keep buying new brass just to shoot matches, I need to find a fix to the problem. Even my gunsmith suspects that the issue is the die.

 

[NYDAN]

Mark, I have had similar experiences with carbon on the necks of annealed, reloaded brass but not on the necks of virgin brass. Unfortunately, I don't have any explanation for this phenomenon. So, you are not alone with this issue.

I don't know when brass manufactures anneal their brass. Is it possible that annealing is their last step? Would it make a difference if you sized your brass first and then annealed it. Is it possible that the necking down and expanding it is hardening the brass just enough to make a difference?

 

[TackDriver284]

Mark, I have had similar experiences with carbon on the necks of annealed, reloaded brass but not on the necks of virgin brass. Unfortunately, I don't have any explanation for this phenomenon. So, you are not alone with this issue.

I don't know when brass manufactures anneal their brass. Is it possible that annealing is their last step? Would it make a difference if you sized your brass first and then annealed it. Is it possible that the necking down and expanding it is hardening the brass just enough to make a difference?

I like your way of thinking, I could try it, but I don't have the die with me yet, until I get the results back from Short Action on the die.