Dialing vs Holdover

[Blkram]

An interesting topic of conversation has started in another thread, and I thought I would ask my question here instead, to respect the OPs original thread there...

For those who dial and shoot, or those who have holdover BDC type reticles (B&C, TDS, BRH, etc.), what are the advantages to you in your style of aiming when shooting and/or hunting?
Or do you use both, depending on your style of shooting at the moment? (Target shooting vs hunting)

Myself, I love the Leupold Boone & Crocket reticles, and the older Kahles/Swarovski TDS reticles. As a hunter first, when in the field, I find this faster to adjust my aiming point on the animal in that I can just range, aim and shoot vs range, dial and shoot. But this just my preferred practice.
While many of my Leupolds have the option for the CDS cap to be cut for free for the rifle's preferred load, I have not done so as yet.

I have just acquired a couple of used VX-6HD scopes, one a 3-18x44 with the illuminated B&C reticle, and the other a 3-18x50 with the illuminated Varmint Hunters reticle, as they illuminate the entire BDC portion of the reticle. Having two of the illuminated B&C reticles already (a 2-12x42 and a 3-18x50), I like them a lot for their better quality glass and improved coatings, for low light hunting scenarios, as I can dial down the intensity of the illumination so that it doesn't overwhelm the aiming point on the target animal in low light conditions. And the illuminated reticle stands out better than a black reticle, especially on darker animals such as bear or moose, in the thick timber, or lower light conditions.

The newer Gen 2 sopes only illuminate the centre crosshair, not the entire BDC portion of the reticle. I can see where the smaller illuminated cross, just at the crosshair would be nicer as it would not cover so much of the aiming point on a target under lower light conditions, and the CDS dial would negate the use of the BDC portion of the reticle when you have more time to range, dial and shoot at long distance targets where the additional accuracy potential can be appreciated more. Not owning one as yet, I have no direct comparison from the field to judge the pros and cons between the two for myself.
The biggest advantage here (to me) is that it is a toolless system for setting your Zero. I like this...I would love to get a Gen 2, but the price of these scopes with the current exchange ratee and tariffs is very expensive here north of the border. And I am getting both of these used, excellent conditions scopes for the price of one new Gen 2.

With these two new-to-me scopes, as they will be going on my 25 Creedmoor, and the planned for the next build (a 257 AI Improved), And will be mainly for deer, sheep, and antelope in wide open spaces, I am wondering if I should order the CDS caps for more precise holds on longer shots (300-500 yards) under normal lighting conditions not requiring the illumination, and where I may have more time for the range, dial, shoot action, or target practice to verify the POIs and just get better at shooting the longer distances during practice in preparation for the hunts.
Thoughts on this from those who practice this method?

 

[JD338]

Good question GIL.
I do both but it depends on the rifle/scope and the circumstances at that moment. I have three VX-6HD scopes with the TMOA illuminated reticle. Even though I’m a one bullet/load per rifle kind of guy I prefer the basic MOA turret as opposed to a CDS reticle that is set up for yardage.
Using a LRF to get my distance I normally use a proven drop chart and dial my distance but I will sometimes just use the MOA hash marks in the TMOA reticle to make minor corrections for distance.
With my VX-5HD scopes, they all have the FireDot standard DuPlex reticle and I dial in the distance if needed.
For Sue, I set her up with CDS dials in yardage. All she needs to do is laser distance, dial that on her turret and shoot. It’s easier for her and it works well.
JD338

 

[JMRhino]

This is a fun topic.

My response is probably more about how my brain processes information and less about the pros/cons of the various systems. I prefer 1st focal plane with sub-tensions in MOA for target shooting. I know MILs should make more sense, but my brain thinks in feet and inches.

With respect to BDC recitals vs dialing, I prefer dialing with a single point of aim such as a Fire dot for hunting scenarios. Seems simpler to me. I never dial for wind. For me, there seems to be too many variables using B&C or BDC type reticles for hunting.

I am very fond of my Leupold's with the CDS and the fire dot for open areas, but it's not needed in the timber.

 

[xphunter]

Jack Of Adjusting All Ways & Master Of None...
This is where I typically say, I can help you answer your question(s) better by a phone call than texting or typing.
It is just figuring out what is going to work best for that person, with that scope for that type of hunting situation.

 

[Charlie-NY]

I have found that the B&C type hash marks work very well out to about 400yds. They are fast and simple to use. Of course, the hash marks aren't perfect for every bullet and speed. Typically, I sight the 400yd hash mark in dead on at 400yds and then check the 200yd and 300yd POIs to see how close they are to the point of aim. They are generally very close.

Other than that, it's hard to beat a dial up scope. They are a bit slower, and you need to remember to zero the scope, but they can't be beat for shooting beyond 400yds.

 

[JMRhino]

I have found that the B&C type hash marks work very well out to about 400yds. They are fast and simple to use. Of course, the hash marks aren't perfect for every bullet and speed. Typically, I sight the 400yd hash mark in dead on at 400yds and then check the 200yd and 300yd POIs to see how close they are to the point of aim. They are generally very close.

Other than that, it's hard to beat a dial up scope. They are a bit slower, and you need to remember to zero the scope, but they can't be beat for shooting beyond 400yds.

That’s a great idea. I have never thought about zeroing at the furthest distance and then reverse engineer the closer ones. I have an older VX 4.5x14 on my 257 WSM and I may need to explore that option. I stuck between using the large or small triangle on the magnification selector lever.

 

[Blkram]

Thanks for the responses so far! Keep them coming.

I forget to mention in opening post that I do verify my POI on the lower BDC points of both my B&C and TDS reticles, with each rifle that has a scope scope with such, out to 400 and 500 yards, depending on which range I am at and the furthest targets available at each.

I do agree that a scope with a BDC type reticle or a CDS cap is usually not needed in the timber...but I have seen way too many moose and bears across large cut blocks enter the timber under low light conditions at 400+ yards where having that illuminated reticle and/or the BDC type reticle or CDS cap would be an advantage to aid in aiming at that dark animal back in the darker woods.

I will also note here that in side by side comparisons of the newer and better glass (VX-5HD and VX-6HD) to my older scopes (VX-III and 3 in both 2.5-8 and 3.5-10 scopes), set at the same approximate power magnification, where the exit pupil size was comparable when the objective lense was not equal (or close to equal such as the 36mm vs 42mm or 40mm vs 44mm), that there was a definite advantage to the better glass' ability to define objects and animals back in the timber at last light. With the older scopes, i could easily see the moose while it was still out in the cut block, but lost it when it entered the dark timber. Switching to the rifles with the newer scopes, I was not only able to see individual tress and stumps back in the forest, but could also pick out that moose or bear as it moved even further back into the woods. A definite improvement in visibility!

I am glad to have that newer VX-6HD 2-12x42 with Illuminated B&C reticle on my 338 Federal which is capable of shots on moose and bears out to 400 yards, and the VX-5HD 2-10x42 on my 358 Win with Firedot reticle even it won't be used much past 250 yards.

 

[xphunter]

Good Glass, Good Reticle (Different for different folks), Lit Reticle, and Zero Stops are all good stuff.
There are some really cool scopes out there, that have a combination of external turrets, FFP reticle. lit reticle, and internal information (Heads up display), where one doesn't even have to look at the their turret, but continue looking through the scope, while they dial. Even more is coming out in the future.
It is like a smorgasbord out there.

 

[JMRhino]

Thanks for the responses so far! Keep them coming.

I forget to mention in opening post that I do verify my POI on the lower BDC points of both my B&C and TDS reticles, with each rifle that has a scope scope with such, out to 400 and 500 yards, depending on which range I am at and the furthest targets available at each.

I do agree that a scope with a BDC type reticle or a CDS cap is usually not needed in the timber...but I have seen way too many moose and bears across large cut blocks enter the timber under low light conditions at 400+ yards where having that illuminated reticle and/or the BDC type reticle or CDS cap would be an advantage to aid in aiming at that dark animal back in the darker woods.

I will also note here that in side by side comparisons of the newer and better glass (VX-5HD and VX-6HD) to my older scopes (VX-III and 3 in both 2.5-8 and 3.5-10 scopes), set at the same approximate power magnification, where the exit pupil size was comparable when the objective lense was not equal (or close to equal such as the 36mm vs 42mm or 40mm vs 44mm), that there was a definite advantage to the better glass' ability to define objects and animals back in the timber at last light. With the older scopes, i could easily see the moose while it was still out in the cut block, but lost it when it entered the dark timber. Switching to the rifles with the newer scopes, I was not only able to see individual tress and stumps back in the forest, but could also pick out that moose or bear as it moved even further back into the woods. A definite improvement in visibility!

I am glad to have that newer VX-6HD 2-12x42 with Illuminated B&C reticle on my 338 Federal which is capable of shots on moose and bears out to 400 yards, and the VX-5HD 2-10x42 on my 358 Win with Firedot reticle even it won't be used much past 250 yards.

I love my Gen II VX6HD 2-12x42 on my 7–08. Probably my favorite optic in my safe for my hunting style and region.

 

[JD338]

I love my Gen II VX6HD 2-12x42 on my 7–08. Probably my favorite optic in my safe for my hunting style and region.

I have a VX-5HD (gen2) 3-15x42mm on my 6.5 Wby RPM. It has excellent glass and the toolless turret cap is a nice feature.

JD338

 

[jimbires]

I do both . I have taken deer with both . I have a few dial up scopes and a few drop reticle scopes . it takes time to dial , using a reticle is quicker . most rifle cartridges bullet drops are very consistent out to 300 yards . things start to change at 400 yards , but not tremendously . there will be big bullets at slow velocity , and light bullets at super high velocity , that will always break this rule . this consistency is how these reticles work as well as they do . I always use a 200 yard zero with my rifles , except for my dial up scopes , they get a 100 yard zero . when hunting I can just turn the elevation up to 200yards , if I desire . I use the standard MOA turrets on my dial up scopes .

the reticle scopes I have now are the Leupold B&C reticles . I use a 200 zero . I'll test the reticle to be sure it matches out at the longer distances . sometimes they match up about perfectly . at longer distances , if it starts to differ much , I'll make changes . usually I can get them to where I might be 1" high at 200 , and maybe 1 " or 2 " inches low at 400 yards . I just make minor adjustments until things match up without being way off , at either near , or far . it has always been doable . most of these reticles call for a 100 yard zero for slower cartridges , I've never had to do this . I relate these reticles to a 4 pin archery sight . know the distance , use the corresponding sight , and shoot . I've never used the Zeiss rapid Z reticles . I'm guessing the rapid Z 800 , would be very difficult to get aligned at the longer distances . things really start to change past 600yards .

dialing up , there is no give or take on this .set the scope dead nuts on at 100 yards zero . when using the scope , you rangefind the target , dial the correction , and shoot . yes , it's slower than shooting off the reticle , but it is precise . dialing allows for temp , altitude , weather corrections .

on a regular duplex reticle , I sight in at 200 yards . I can hold right on out to about 250 yards . at 300 yards lay the reticle on a whitetails back , the bullet will drop into the vitals .

 

[wvbuckbuster]

Years ago, I read an article called shooting the duplex. For standard calibers such as 270,30-06 and such with a Leupold duplex reticle sight in 2 inches high at 100yds this will put you on at 200yds. 250yards hold high shoulder, 300yards hold on the hairline of the back. At 350 yards place the top of the bottom post on the middle of the kill zone. It works I've tried and done it several times. Fast forward to reticles with holdover dots for me the most consistent has been Leupold LR now Creedmoor, Burris followed by Vortex. Still depends on caliber and velocity. Spending time at the range tweaking your sight in for rifle caliber will determine what works best for you. Have purchased couple of Leupold with CDS and have been using them at the range getting set up. More precise if time allows in a hunting situation for sure at longer ranges. I guess bottom line is what you get used to, how far you'll be shooting and what works best for each individual.

 

[salmonchaser]

I have anything I’m hunting with zeroed at 200 yards, until recently that included my 375HH. Basically using the point blank range system. This has worked for me for 60 years.
257 Roberts 3000 fps
275 Rigby 140bt. 2900 and a little change
3006 150gr BT or Partition 2950
300 HH 180 Accubonds 2990
338 Jarrett 250gr AccuBond 2950
375HH 300gr is the only outlier in velocity but still hits the steel plates at 300 yards with the same holds as the above.
I’ve probably dialed a few times on critters at 300, yards. Anything under 300 I don’t bother. I have however upgraded my scopes to include cds on anything I hunt with. In South Africa last year I only dialed on three animals as I recall, haven’t had coffee yet, those were at long 3 to near 500 yards.

 

[Ridge_Runner]

+2.5" at 100,
to 200 hold lower third of the shoulder, 300 hold upper third of the shoulder, 400 hold top of the back 500 hold 10" over the back.
trajectory looks like this
100 +2.5
200 +3.5
300 0.0
400 -7.75
500 -21
this is for chamberings running good bullets around 3100 fps. (6.5 gibbs,, 7mm STW, 270 Bee etc)
however that said I 90% of the time dial beyond 300.

 

[RL338]

For hunting I have 2 stands. One in the woods has a max range of 125yds , no need for any elevation correction. The second is out in the old pasture and most shots are under 250yds , can go out to 400yds but no need to. For this stand I use the big magnums and at 250yds it requires only a slightly higher aiming point.
For shooting steel dial elevation and hold for windage.

 

[xphunter]

100 Yard Zero for bottleneck cartridges.

 

[Teknys]

I use both. I sight in about 2" high at 100 yds and use the reticle out to 400 yds since it's quick. Anything further I'll dial if conditions will let me.

 

[xphunter]

If I have a good FFP MOA or MIL reticle (Numbered), I will also have my drops/drift listed in 25 yard increments on my gun.
I can either dial or use the reticle (Flexibility), and I don't have to worry about being on a certain magnification.

Ballistic turrets are fast

I also have some SFP scopes, where I Dial for distance.

I quit using Ballistic Reticles years ago

 

[Blkram]

I do both . I have taken deer with both . I have a few dial up scopes and a few drop reticle scopes . it takes time to dial , using a reticle is quicker . most rifle cartridges bullet drops are very consistent out to 300 yards . things start to change at 400 yards , but not tremendously . there will be big bullets at slow velocity , and light bullets at super high velocity , that will always break this rule . this consistency is how these reticles work as well as they do . I always use a 200 yard zero with my rifles , except for my dial up scopes , they get a 100 yard zero . when hunting I can just turn the elevation up to 200yards , if I desire . I use the standard MOA turrets on my dial up scopes .

the reticle scopes I have now are the Leupold B&C reticles . I use a 200 zero . I'll test the reticle to be sure it matches out at the longer distances . sometimes they match up about perfectly . at longer distances , if it starts to differ much , I'll make changes . usually I can get them to where I might be 1" high at 200 , and maybe 1 " or 2 " inches low at 400 yards . I just make minor adjustments until things match up without being way off , at either near , or far . it has always been doable . most of these reticles call for a 100 yard zero for slower cartridges , I've never had to do this . I relate these reticles to a 4 pin archery sight . know the distance , use the corresponding sight , and shoot . I've never used the Zeiss rapid Z reticles . I'm guessing the rapid Z 800 , would be very difficult to get aligned at the longer distances . things really start to change past 600yards .

dialing up , there is no give or take on this .set the scope dead nuts on at 100 yards zero . when using the scope , you rangefind the target , dial the correction , and shoot . yes , it's slower than shooting off the reticle , but it is precise . dialing allows for temp , altitude , weather corrections .

on a regular duplex reticle , I sight in at 200 yards . I can hold right on out to about 250 yards . at 300 yards lay the reticle on a whitetails back , the bullet will drop into the vitals .

I have pretty much used a 200 yard zero for almost all my rifles over the years (and as a hunter first, I still prefer a SFP scope on my hunting rifles), except the levers that are short range cartridges anyways, such as my 375 Win (100 yard zero), and BLR in 358 Win (150 yard zero).
Depending on the cartridge, with the Boone & Crockett reticle, dialing to the power setting of the proper sized triangle on the dial, for the proper velocity range of the cartridge (2700 fps and 3200 fps IIRC) has done well to date on the 400 and 500 yard steel targets, down to the smaller squares at our range which are still vital sized for deer sized animals at 8".
The TDS reticles of Kahles/Swarovski require you to look up on their charts to determine the proper magnification setting for particular velocities, and this too have been verified on the same steel targets at 400 yards to date (limit of range I was at at the time) in my rifles that wear these scopes. My Kahles TDSs scopes (3-9x42) are now on my High and Low Walls in 6.5 CM and 6.5x55, respectively.

While you can zero the B&C for 300 yards and then get out to 600 yards with the drops points in the reticle, I have not tried this, as we do not have a range where I can test this to verify poi. Would like to someday, as the 7MM STW definitely carries enough velocity past 500 yards for reliaable expansion with the 160 gr AccuBond. As does the 7mm PRC would as well with the 170+ gr bullets, and the 300 WSM with 180 and 200 gr bullets. (I would hope that I a never need to reach out this far on any game; wounded or otherwise! But this is just me.)

I have switched the 358 Win from a 200 yard zero to a 150 yard zero as the trajectory on longer shots with these rifles only to 250 yards is better; for the BLR which has been running the 220 gr Hot Cor at 2209 fps from its 20" barrel, 1.7" high at 100, zero at 200, provides, 4.1" of drop at 200 yards. Remaining velocity at 150 yards is just 1867 fsp and 1758 fps at 200 yards. So, I limit the shots on this rifle to ensure adequate expansion on game so that I am zeroed for, where I know I will achieve the desired performance level. If I need a follow up shot on wounded game, I might not get the expansion at 200 yards, but I will achieve the penetration due to retained weight, where the remaining energy is still 1511 ft lbs. (My longest shot to date on game (deer, bear, moose, and elk) with this rifle over the past 22 years has been just 140 yards.)
In my 22" barreled Rem 700, with the initial velocity of 2410 fps with the 225 gr SGK from the HSM ammo, the 150 yard zero provides 1.2" high at 100, and drops of 3.2" at 200 yards and 8.5" at 250 yards. (Still holding on hair!) At 300 yards, I still have 1838 fps of remaining velocity, with a 16.1" drop, should I need it for a follow up shot and 1688 ft lbs of retained energy.
If I do switch to the handload and am getting consistent performance at 2528 fps with the CFE 223 powder, in the bolt action, performance is improved to a 200 zero where I will be getting 1.2" high at 100, and 10" low at 300 yards, where retained velocity is 1941 fps and 1882 ft lbs of retained energy. Hoping to work with this load some more to ensure consistent performance! Accuracy was 0.720" at 100 yards for the first trial load. (And with the VX-5 HD 2-10x42 FireDot reticle, I have the glass to handle any hunting situation where I will be using this rifle.)

Two other scopes that I am interested in trying, but haven't had the chance to yet, are the Leica Amplus 6 3-18x44i BDC MOA and Zeiss V-4 4-16x44 #68 ZBi Illum - ASV-EASV-W Ballistic Turret.
Of the two, I am leaning more towards the Zeiss as I thinkt the illuminated cross might be nicer for most of my hunting vs the smaller illuminated dot on the crosshair of the Leica.
Anyone tried these? Or compared the two?
Thoughts?

 

[Blkram]

Years ago, I read an article called shooting the duplex. For standard calibers such as 270,30-06 and such with a Leupold duplex reticle sight in 2 inches high at 100yds this will put you on at 200yds. 250yards hold high shoulder, 300yards hold on the hairline of the back. At 350 yards place the top of the bottom post on the middle of the kill zone. It works I've tried and done it several times. Fast forward to reticles with holdover dots for me the most consistent has been Leupold LR now Creedmoor, Burris followed by Vortex. Still depends on caliber and velocity. Spending time at the range tweaking your sight in for rifle caliber will determine what works best for you. Have purchased couple of Leupold with CDS and have been using them at the range getting set up. More precise if time allows in a hunting situation for sure at longer ranges. I guess bottom line is what you get used to, how far you'll be shooting and what works best for each individual.

I believe I read the same, or a similar article.
Back in 94/95 when I was first playing with my Rem 700 Classic in 6.5x55, I had a Leupold 6x42 scope on it and used this method to shoot the 400 yard target. It was spot on, with the tip of the lower thicker post, with the 140 gr Partition and Barnes X bullets, using a 200 yard zero (max loads of IMR-4350 from the the respective reloading mainuals).